Silversaddle1
12-07-2007, 04:40 PM
Did anyone else get the letter today bashing the TWH industry? Talking about "stacks", "soring", inhumane training methods, etc. Look out folks, Saddlebreds will be next.
Got Silver?
Got Silver?
View Full Version : The Humane Society of the United States Letter
attafox
12-07-2007, 05:54 PM
Unless you received it directly from HSUS, I believe you are referring to a letter that is over a year old that was sent after the TWH Celebration did not crown a WGC due to horses not passing DQP.
This has been argued ad nauseum and the first thing that is always brought up is ASBs are next. SilverSaddle1 - if you have learned anything on these boards, this is a trotting breed and it isn't sored. Leaders of the industry went in front of Congress when the HPA was originally enacted to explain the ASB and its action. Originally, only the TWH was singled out in the HPA, but intense lobbying efforts by the TWH industry got the specific language thrown out.
The head veterinarian in charge of the HPA enforcement has been to L'ville and has publicly stated that there is no reason to inspect ASBs as the soring just doesn't occur in the industry.
This has been argued ad nauseum and the first thing that is always brought up is ASBs are next. SilverSaddle1 - if you have learned anything on these boards, this is a trotting breed and it isn't sored. Leaders of the industry went in front of Congress when the HPA was originally enacted to explain the ASB and its action. Originally, only the TWH was singled out in the HPA, but intense lobbying efforts by the TWH industry got the specific language thrown out.
The head veterinarian in charge of the HPA enforcement has been to L'ville and has publicly stated that there is no reason to inspect ASBs as the soring just doesn't occur in the industry.
Silversaddle1
12-07-2007, 10:10 PM
Well the letter came in the mail today, along with a petition to sign and send to the USDA. Seem's like it's a new push to strenghen a law called "The Horse Protection Act". And the letter also goes on to thank all the supporters who helped end horse slaughter for human food.
So yes, ASB breed will be next, as will all other breeds. These people will not quit until horse's will be roaming free and mankind will be back to eating bugs around a campfire.
Give 'em an inch.....
And here's some of the wording in the petition...
and I quote "The Tennessee Walking Horse, and other gaited horses, needs the commitment of the USDA to enforce esisting laws, and to protect them from unnatural suffering and pain simply for the sake of profit and entertainment."
Your right Attafox, I have learned alot over the years about Saddlebreds and training methods. But make no mistake Saddlebred people, your in their sights as well. The above paragraph should scare the hell out of all horse owners, not just TWH and ASB and other gaited breed people.
So yes, ASB breed will be next, as will all other breeds. These people will not quit until horse's will be roaming free and mankind will be back to eating bugs around a campfire.
Give 'em an inch.....
And here's some of the wording in the petition...
and I quote "The Tennessee Walking Horse, and other gaited horses, needs the commitment of the USDA to enforce esisting laws, and to protect them from unnatural suffering and pain simply for the sake of profit and entertainment."
Your right Attafox, I have learned alot over the years about Saddlebreds and training methods. But make no mistake Saddlebred people, your in their sights as well. The above paragraph should scare the hell out of all horse owners, not just TWH and ASB and other gaited breed people.
Renae
12-07-2007, 10:22 PM
The HSUS is a front for the more radical PETA. These groups are dangerous and anyone supporting their causes should really really look into every aspect of these organizations. These organizations are not the warm and fuzzy save the puppies and kittens groups they would like you to think they are, they do some nasty things to forward their ideas and motives, just do a few google searches. Their most radical ultimate end goal is that no one be allowed to own any animals for any reason.
Silversaddle1
12-07-2007, 11:39 PM
The HSUS is a front for the more radical PETA. These groups are dangerous and anyone supporting their causes should really really look into every aspect of these organizations. These organizations are not the warm and fuzzy save the puppies and kittens groups they would like you to think they are, they do some nasty things to forward their ideas and motives, just do a few google searches. Their most radical ultimate end goal is that no one be allowed to own any animals for any reason.
Correct! And that's why people can't bury their heads and say "it's not us".
It's all of us.
Got Silver?
Correct! And that's why people can't bury their heads and say "it's not us".
It's all of us.
Got Silver?
smorrow923
12-08-2007, 09:17 AM
I agree! the HSUS is BAD news. Even for dog and cat owners. They're slowly convincing people that we are torturing our animals and it's just NOT true. They've been able to get gestation crates banned for pigs in several states (ones with little pig populations) and are moving on to states with greater pig populations. They're trying to do similar things with how cows are housed/milked. They want to ban stalls for cows. STALLS! Now, let's see.. what other animals are housed in stalls? horses. That's right! We ARE next if we let them keep on this.
They're a radical group (my guess is they're composed of rich people with too much money and time and not enough to worry about!) and they are not associated with your local humane society. They're their own entity and they're scary. By starting in states where there are a few populations of a particular animal, they're setting a standard so when they move on to states like Kentucky(with lots of horses!) the law makers will see "Well, they did it that state!". It's scary. They are a scary group right up there next to PETA!
They're a radical group (my guess is they're composed of rich people with too much money and time and not enough to worry about!) and they are not associated with your local humane society. They're their own entity and they're scary. By starting in states where there are a few populations of a particular animal, they're setting a standard so when they move on to states like Kentucky(with lots of horses!) the law makers will see "Well, they did it that state!". It's scary. They are a scary group right up there next to PETA!
She's Snow Angel
12-08-2007, 09:51 AM
I pitched the whole thing in the trash soon after I opened the envelope and read the letter. Let's talk about all the trees that they killed to send out their little labels and notepads that I just threw n the garbage.
snowfool
12-08-2007, 02:49 PM
I was a longstanding member and supporter of HSUS until two years ago. When I originally became a member, it was a much different organization than it is today. I began being literally bombarded with literature and propaganda and I didn't like what I was reading. Their message read just like PETA's literature which I receive from time (although I have NEVER supported PETA). It has been two years since I sent them any money and there has been no slowing down of the literature! The people behind the movement are not horsemen and horsewomen - they are a completely different breed of people who know just enough to form their own agendas but they don't see the whole picture.
Silly Filly
12-08-2007, 04:02 PM
http://www.att.net/s/editorial.dll?pnum=1&bfromind=7401&eeid=5570889&_sitecat=1522&dcatid=0&eetype=article&render=y&ac=-2&ck=&ch=ne&rg=blsadstrgt
They are after carriage horses in the above link.
They are after carriage horses in the above link.
ASB_EQ_Gal
12-08-2007, 04:15 PM
This is really scary! I hope something happens to stop these people.
snowfool
12-08-2007, 05:02 PM
http://www.att.net/s/editorial.dll?pnum=1&bfromind=7401&eeid=5570889&_sitecat=1522&dcatid=0&eetype=article&render=y&ac=-2&ck=&ch=ne&rg=blsadstrgt
They are after carriage horses in the above link.
Case enpointe - "Horses are incompatible with traffic - especially midtown traffic."
If this were really true there would be no mounted officers, nor could horses survive the rigors of a parade. This man is NOT a horseman!:mad:
Furthermore, while they cite two incidents in less than two years, it would be much more interesting to know how many years horses have been on their streets as compared to how many total incidents there have been.
Care to let Councilman Avella know your thoughts: avella@council.nyc.ny.us
He's been a local New York politician for his entire political career from what I read of his resume. He probably rarely sees beyond that world - if you send him an email, remember - being ugly will only make us horse folks look bad.
They are after carriage horses in the above link.
Case enpointe - "Horses are incompatible with traffic - especially midtown traffic."
If this were really true there would be no mounted officers, nor could horses survive the rigors of a parade. This man is NOT a horseman!:mad:
Furthermore, while they cite two incidents in less than two years, it would be much more interesting to know how many years horses have been on their streets as compared to how many total incidents there have been.
Care to let Councilman Avella know your thoughts: avella@council.nyc.ny.us
He's been a local New York politician for his entire political career from what I read of his resume. He probably rarely sees beyond that world - if you send him an email, remember - being ugly will only make us horse folks look bad.
Silversaddle1
12-08-2007, 05:21 PM
This is really scary! I hope something happens to stop these people.
Sitting around hoping won't help. Help spread the word. You can help out, no matter how old you are.
Got Silver?
Sitting around hoping won't help. Help spread the word. You can help out, no matter how old you are.
Got Silver?
Cherokee03
12-08-2007, 08:59 PM
I took a trip to New York this time last year. One thing I had to do before we left was of course take a carriage ride through the park. The horses were very well taken care of. They had feed at the stand and the first thing we did before entering the park was stop for the horse to take a drink of water.
Have they actually forgotten what we originally used horses for before there was a car?:rolleyes:
PETA holds a protest once a month in Atlanta. Obviously they have nothing else to do. They have been known to hand cuff themselves to the doors of buildings and such just for the publicity it gets. Extreeeeeeemist!
Have they actually forgotten what we originally used horses for before there was a car?:rolleyes:
PETA holds a protest once a month in Atlanta. Obviously they have nothing else to do. They have been known to hand cuff themselves to the doors of buildings and such just for the publicity it gets. Extreeeeeeemist!
Renae
12-08-2007, 09:05 PM
PETA goes beyond extremists, they are a terrorist group.
ASB_EQ_Gal
12-08-2007, 11:06 PM
Sitting around hoping won't help. Help spread the word. You can help out, no matter how old you are.
Got Silver?
I'm actually proud to say that I have done things. We have gotten these letters as well as friends who aren't really with horses and we've educated them to not sign those crazy petitions. So yes I'm still hoping but not just sitting around because I'm young. Sad to say I was actually more involved with it than my parents were. I think our generation needs to step out because we can really help with these kind of things (youth nowadays really need to stay involved):)
Got Silver?
I'm actually proud to say that I have done things. We have gotten these letters as well as friends who aren't really with horses and we've educated them to not sign those crazy petitions. So yes I'm still hoping but not just sitting around because I'm young. Sad to say I was actually more involved with it than my parents were. I think our generation needs to step out because we can really help with these kind of things (youth nowadays really need to stay involved):)
tommygrl
12-08-2007, 11:42 PM
YES ! Those PETA & HSUS organizations are dangerous. They work incrementally, citing all sorts of 'cruel' practices (stalls?), and because laws do not stop everything they want stopped, there must be more and tighter laws. And so on. Watch out for the 'companion animal' vs. livestock or an animal which is owned; very different requirements for the owner.
Seems like those involved in those organizations , if not zealots, then are sweet & caring folks, misguided, who have little to do with horses or other animals. Yes, watch out for pig laws, and dog & cat laws, because horses are next.
Those posts above give me hope that we will not be taken over. Thank you.
Seems like those involved in those organizations , if not zealots, then are sweet & caring folks, misguided, who have little to do with horses or other animals. Yes, watch out for pig laws, and dog & cat laws, because horses are next.
Those posts above give me hope that we will not be taken over. Thank you.
Silversaddle1
12-09-2007, 08:17 AM
I'm actually proud to say that I have done things. We have gotten these letters as well as friends who aren't really with horses and we've educated them to not sign those crazy petitions. So yes I'm still hoping but not just sitting around because I'm young. Sad to say I was actually more involved with it than my parents were. I think our generation needs to step out because we can really help with these kind of things (youth nowadays really need to stay involved):)
We I'm glad you are helping out. We all have to do something, even if it is just spreading the word. Between the animal rights groups and the anti-gun groups, hell who knows where this country will be in 25 years.
Got Silver?
We I'm glad you are helping out. We all have to do something, even if it is just spreading the word. Between the animal rights groups and the anti-gun groups, hell who knows where this country will be in 25 years.
Got Silver?
smorrow923
12-09-2007, 08:33 AM
We I'm glad you are helping out. We all have to do something, even if it is just spreading the word. Between the animal rights groups and the anti-gun groups, hell who knows where this country will be in 25 years.
Got Silver?
Not to hijack the thread but does anyone know what the first thing Hitler took away from everyone when he took power? He took away their guns. Same thing happened in several other dictatorship-type countries. The first thing the government took away from their people were their guns-leaving them helpless when they ransacked their homes and killed their families.
Got Silver?
Not to hijack the thread but does anyone know what the first thing Hitler took away from everyone when he took power? He took away their guns. Same thing happened in several other dictatorship-type countries. The first thing the government took away from their people were their guns-leaving them helpless when they ransacked their homes and killed their families.
Silversaddle1
12-09-2007, 01:00 PM
Not to hijack the thread but does anyone know what the first thing Hitler took away from everyone when he took power? He took away their guns. Same thing happened in several other dictatorship-type countries. The first thing the government took away from their people were their guns-leaving them helpless when they ransacked their homes and killed their families.
Where would this country be without guns and horses? Would it even exist?
Got Silver?
Where would this country be without guns and horses? Would it even exist?
Got Silver?
tommygrl
12-09-2007, 02:19 PM
Not to hijack the topic again...but,
Isn't too bad that we must rely on the media to inform the general public of events & situations, as there is a real bias in reporting.
There are rare & few errors in gun use for self defense, especially in my "Licensed to Carry" state, and many times where use of, or the threat to use a firearm has been a good and legitimate use in a citizen's own protection. No, my state will not go gunless.
And so with the many days and many animals which have a non-cruel day. How many reportings are there of the overwhelming majority of days of nothing cruel happening? Just everyday ordinary uses. Well, if nothing is happening, then so many activities in themselves will be deemed cruel and need to be outlawed, like in the carriage article. No amount of argueing or explaining or teaching will deter those who know better.
I, too, do what I can to educate, etc., but often feel overwhelmed by those big organization's media and legislative bllitzes. And they are into so many areas-dog, cat, pig, rodeo, cows.... Like the ASB testimony in congress during the HPA passage, are there any other success stories out there?
Isn't too bad that we must rely on the media to inform the general public of events & situations, as there is a real bias in reporting.
There are rare & few errors in gun use for self defense, especially in my "Licensed to Carry" state, and many times where use of, or the threat to use a firearm has been a good and legitimate use in a citizen's own protection. No, my state will not go gunless.
And so with the many days and many animals which have a non-cruel day. How many reportings are there of the overwhelming majority of days of nothing cruel happening? Just everyday ordinary uses. Well, if nothing is happening, then so many activities in themselves will be deemed cruel and need to be outlawed, like in the carriage article. No amount of argueing or explaining or teaching will deter those who know better.
I, too, do what I can to educate, etc., but often feel overwhelmed by those big organization's media and legislative bllitzes. And they are into so many areas-dog, cat, pig, rodeo, cows.... Like the ASB testimony in congress during the HPA passage, are there any other success stories out there?
AlbertaSaddler
12-10-2007, 05:04 PM
I would like to see ANYONE try and take my firearms and my horses away from me. First of all, don't think your fat pony could catch my lithe horse, lol, and secondly, I've been shooting and handling firearms ever since I could remember, not to mention time in the military, so...yep. I win. Lol.
These organizations are out of control. Honestly people! If we were to have no pets/livestock etc, you would have no leather seats in your gas guzzling Escalade, no milk for your baby because you are "new school" and breast feeding is wrong, but so is milking a cow, apparently, not to mention no more silk anything as that is cruel to the worm...the list goes on.
These people, who ever they are, need to give their heads a shake. How was the world civilized? With the help of animals. They fed us, sheltered us, transported us, and kept us company for thousands of years. Of course there are awful people who treat animals horribly, but I think, and I trust, that the general animal care-giving, loving population treat their animals with the respect and care they deserve. These organizations can get me stirred right up.
These organizations are out of control. Honestly people! If we were to have no pets/livestock etc, you would have no leather seats in your gas guzzling Escalade, no milk for your baby because you are "new school" and breast feeding is wrong, but so is milking a cow, apparently, not to mention no more silk anything as that is cruel to the worm...the list goes on.
These people, who ever they are, need to give their heads a shake. How was the world civilized? With the help of animals. They fed us, sheltered us, transported us, and kept us company for thousands of years. Of course there are awful people who treat animals horribly, but I think, and I trust, that the general animal care-giving, loving population treat their animals with the respect and care they deserve. These organizations can get me stirred right up.
davish
12-10-2007, 05:52 PM
Hi All,
I don't mean to get up on my soap box but I really feel the need to vent a little after something I heard on tv this morning. I agree that PETA are way off on all most everything they protest on but I do believe that they had some good intentions when they first got started. Like so many orginizations these days, the wrong people get in control and start mouthing off on things they know nothing about or have no understanding of. What really concerns mean is that we are all in real danger of loosing our right to free speach and the right to bare arms!! There are groups trying to gain control of our goverments, (local, state and federal) that their only adjendia is to do just this! I don't want to start pointing fingers at anyone but we as a whole (I mean socity today) have given too much power to celebraties and how they influince our dicession making. I strongly encrouage each one of you out there to make sure when you go to the polls, to make sure you are voting for a person or people that feel the same way you do not because of thier race, creed or gender. Just becasue someone is female, male, white, black, christian or something else does not mean we should blindly be putting them into office. Make sure you really know the truth about each canidit before making the selection.
I'm done now sorry to go off!!
Heather
I don't mean to get up on my soap box but I really feel the need to vent a little after something I heard on tv this morning. I agree that PETA are way off on all most everything they protest on but I do believe that they had some good intentions when they first got started. Like so many orginizations these days, the wrong people get in control and start mouthing off on things they know nothing about or have no understanding of. What really concerns mean is that we are all in real danger of loosing our right to free speach and the right to bare arms!! There are groups trying to gain control of our goverments, (local, state and federal) that their only adjendia is to do just this! I don't want to start pointing fingers at anyone but we as a whole (I mean socity today) have given too much power to celebraties and how they influince our dicession making. I strongly encrouage each one of you out there to make sure when you go to the polls, to make sure you are voting for a person or people that feel the same way you do not because of thier race, creed or gender. Just becasue someone is female, male, white, black, christian or something else does not mean we should blindly be putting them into office. Make sure you really know the truth about each canidit before making the selection.
I'm done now sorry to go off!!
Heather
Silversaddle1
12-10-2007, 07:05 PM
Hi All,
I don't mean to get up on my soap box but I really feel the need to vent a little after something I heard on tv this morning. I agree that PETA are way off on all most everything they protest on but I do believe that they had some good intentions when they first got started. Like so many orginizations these days, the wrong people get in control and start mouthing off on things they know nothing about or have no understanding of. What really concerns mean is that we are all in real danger of loosing our right to free speach and the right to bare arms!! There are groups trying to gain control of our goverments, (local, state and federal) that their only adjendia is to do just this! I don't want to start pointing fingers at anyone but we as a whole (I mean socity today) have given too much power to celebraties and how they influince our dicession making. I strongly encrouage each one of you out there to make sure when you go to the polls, to make sure you are voting for a person or people that feel the same way you do not because of thier race, creed or gender. Just becasue someone is female, male, white, black, christian or something else does not mean we should blindly be putting them into office. Make sure you really know the truth about each canidit before making the selection.
I'm done now sorry to go off!!
Heather
Are people starting to see the light? These radical groups depend on ignorance to propel their lies.
I know the thread wa started on HSUS, but let me stray to make a point.
All it takes is one person willing to do something.
Now everybody seen what happened here in Omaha last week. Westroads mall. We go there all the time. And as you walk in the door you get a nice warm fuzzy feeling inside knowing that those "Gun free zone" signs on the doors are gonna keep you safe and warm. Well last week, the mall was anything but gun-free. And why would there be gun free zone signs on the doors of the biggest shopping malls in Nebraska? Well because Nebraska has a new conciled carry law that allows people to carry firearms. Now understand that it is very costly to get one of these permits, and you have to pass test, take classes, background checks. They don't just give them away in Cracker-Jack boxes. So if by chance you have been a good boy and crossed all the "t"'s and dotted your "i"'s, you can have the permit. Now to abide by the law, if it says no firearms, you don't carry. So if you want to shop at the mall, leave your firearm in the truck. And as a private property owner, the mall has the right to do so. But our physco gunman didn't care about the law or the happy little signs on the door did he? We all know the outcome.
Now let's look at the church shootings in Colorado. The second church this wack-job decides to shoot up has security guards, armed, security gaurds. Well wack-job does not know this and starts blazing away in the parking lot, killing two teenage sisters and wounding others. Now he heads towards the church and guess what? He's dropped dead by a guard, and mind you not some big hairy Rambo dude guard, oh no, it's a women!!! I love that!! She refused to be a victum. So stood up to evil and saved many live's including hers.
My point is that all it takes is one person. One person to take a stand against these people or groups. Behold the power of one!
Make no mistake there are many groups out there who are trying to take your rights away. Be it your right to own guns, enjoy your horses, or even what you think and say.
The fight starts with you.
The power of one.
Got Silver?
I don't mean to get up on my soap box but I really feel the need to vent a little after something I heard on tv this morning. I agree that PETA are way off on all most everything they protest on but I do believe that they had some good intentions when they first got started. Like so many orginizations these days, the wrong people get in control and start mouthing off on things they know nothing about or have no understanding of. What really concerns mean is that we are all in real danger of loosing our right to free speach and the right to bare arms!! There are groups trying to gain control of our goverments, (local, state and federal) that their only adjendia is to do just this! I don't want to start pointing fingers at anyone but we as a whole (I mean socity today) have given too much power to celebraties and how they influince our dicession making. I strongly encrouage each one of you out there to make sure when you go to the polls, to make sure you are voting for a person or people that feel the same way you do not because of thier race, creed or gender. Just becasue someone is female, male, white, black, christian or something else does not mean we should blindly be putting them into office. Make sure you really know the truth about each canidit before making the selection.
I'm done now sorry to go off!!
Heather
Are people starting to see the light? These radical groups depend on ignorance to propel their lies.
I know the thread wa started on HSUS, but let me stray to make a point.
All it takes is one person willing to do something.
Now everybody seen what happened here in Omaha last week. Westroads mall. We go there all the time. And as you walk in the door you get a nice warm fuzzy feeling inside knowing that those "Gun free zone" signs on the doors are gonna keep you safe and warm. Well last week, the mall was anything but gun-free. And why would there be gun free zone signs on the doors of the biggest shopping malls in Nebraska? Well because Nebraska has a new conciled carry law that allows people to carry firearms. Now understand that it is very costly to get one of these permits, and you have to pass test, take classes, background checks. They don't just give them away in Cracker-Jack boxes. So if by chance you have been a good boy and crossed all the "t"'s and dotted your "i"'s, you can have the permit. Now to abide by the law, if it says no firearms, you don't carry. So if you want to shop at the mall, leave your firearm in the truck. And as a private property owner, the mall has the right to do so. But our physco gunman didn't care about the law or the happy little signs on the door did he? We all know the outcome.
Now let's look at the church shootings in Colorado. The second church this wack-job decides to shoot up has security guards, armed, security gaurds. Well wack-job does not know this and starts blazing away in the parking lot, killing two teenage sisters and wounding others. Now he heads towards the church and guess what? He's dropped dead by a guard, and mind you not some big hairy Rambo dude guard, oh no, it's a women!!! I love that!! She refused to be a victum. So stood up to evil and saved many live's including hers.
My point is that all it takes is one person. One person to take a stand against these people or groups. Behold the power of one!
Make no mistake there are many groups out there who are trying to take your rights away. Be it your right to own guns, enjoy your horses, or even what you think and say.
The fight starts with you.
The power of one.
Got Silver?
smorrow923
12-10-2007, 07:17 PM
AHH! All you people that are posting here have given me a new found hope! I seriously felt like I was the only one standing up and trying to make people see my point of view and now to know there are other people who feel as passionatly about it as I do.. WOW!
Hopefully, everyone here is involved with things-from educating people, letting your opinions be known, writing lawmakers/politicains. We need to stand up and they need to hear us. All everyone hears about is the radical groups. Lets let them hear about a "normal" "sane" group that only has the best interests of EVERYONE in mind. No tjust our own secret agendas!
Hopefully, everyone here is involved with things-from educating people, letting your opinions be known, writing lawmakers/politicains. We need to stand up and they need to hear us. All everyone hears about is the radical groups. Lets let them hear about a "normal" "sane" group that only has the best interests of EVERYONE in mind. No tjust our own secret agendas!
tommygrl
12-11-2007, 01:23 AM
Amazing what can be learned from trot.org !
Last week, I read the news story that began this thread about the horse-drawn carriages in New York. This past Sundays newspaper has that same article, same arthor; only the first few paragraphs are about New York...the remaining article targets the local San Antonio horse-drawn carriages. Wonder what is in store for those neat tourist carriages? Beware the statement "There Ought'a Be a Law". We have lots of laws.
And about the tragic incidences in Colo., there is now more publicity about the self-defense use of a firearm. What a brave woman. I don't have the exact number, but there are a suprising number of positive protection uses recorded each year, & we ought to hear about them.
smorrow923 reiterated my feeling like the only one to see the damage by HSUS and PETA. I'm not sure just one can stand up to two powerful well-funded organizations, but I feel a strength in the comments here.
There are many days of nothing cruel or restricting of our rights happening, & Let's keep it that way. Thanks.
Last week, I read the news story that began this thread about the horse-drawn carriages in New York. This past Sundays newspaper has that same article, same arthor; only the first few paragraphs are about New York...the remaining article targets the local San Antonio horse-drawn carriages. Wonder what is in store for those neat tourist carriages? Beware the statement "There Ought'a Be a Law". We have lots of laws.
And about the tragic incidences in Colo., there is now more publicity about the self-defense use of a firearm. What a brave woman. I don't have the exact number, but there are a suprising number of positive protection uses recorded each year, & we ought to hear about them.
smorrow923 reiterated my feeling like the only one to see the damage by HSUS and PETA. I'm not sure just one can stand up to two powerful well-funded organizations, but I feel a strength in the comments here.
There are many days of nothing cruel or restricting of our rights happening, & Let's keep it that way. Thanks.
D_BaldStockings
12-11-2007, 02:32 PM
It is always a good idea to collect references to facts and statistics in favor of sane reasoning so we have a sound defense when confronted or challenged by non-sane, emotional extremism, especially when we may be in the minority. Majority rule can degenrate to mass-hysteria rule, sadly.
It is always tough to oppose groups who have infiltrated and usurped once grand organizations to their own ends and have media representation to back them, but we must or risk losing freedoms that enhance all our lives.
Mary
It is always tough to oppose groups who have infiltrated and usurped once grand organizations to their own ends and have media representation to back them, but we must or risk losing freedoms that enhance all our lives.
Mary
Ubiquitous
12-11-2007, 06:29 PM
While while we're on gun-control, organizations supporting total animal liberation, and the like. I have a simple solution guaranteed to work. If we legalize marijuanna, then most of the people who go to those protests will be too lazy to go or to open their junk mail from PETA anymore. Problem Solved. :cool:
SteppinEasy
12-11-2007, 07:16 PM
While I agree that PETA and its ilk are nuts, I would hate for anyone to lose sight of the fact that the Horse Protection Act (the subject of the original letter and post from the Humane Society) NEEDS to continue to be strengthened! The HPA focuses on stopping the soring of TWHs and other naturally gaited breeds, something that doesn't involve ASBs but should be of concern to all horse owners. The HPA needs more funding, better scientific means of identifying sorers and most importantly, *real* penalties for those who have abused horses in this way. Improvement has been made, but more still needs to be done.
Please don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. The only ones who are going to lose will be the ones who least deserve it--the horses.
Please don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. The only ones who are going to lose will be the ones who least deserve it--the horses.
Silversaddle1
12-11-2007, 11:32 PM
While I agree that PETA and its ilk are nuts, I would hate for anyone to lose sight of the fact that the Horse Protection Act (the subject of the original letter and post from the Humane Society) NEEDS to continue to be strengthened! The HPA focuses on stopping the soring of TWHs and other naturally gaited breeds, something that doesn't involve ASBs but should be of concern to all horse owners. The HPA needs more funding, better scientific means of identifying sorers and most importantly, *real* penalties for those who have abused horses in this way. Improvement has been made, but more still needs to be done.
Please don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. The only ones who are going to lose will be the ones who least deserve it--the horses.
And see, the problem is right in front of you, yet you refuse to see it. It may not include you now, but make no mistake, it will. Don't think so? Show a saddlebred in a tailset to any non-saddlebred person. See what their first reaction is. That's what's in store for saddlebred people. These wack-o's will see no differance between tailsets and soring.
Go ahead and let these kooks influince how the HPA is re-written, and see where you are then. I promise you won't like it.
Got Silver?
Please don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. The only ones who are going to lose will be the ones who least deserve it--the horses.
And see, the problem is right in front of you, yet you refuse to see it. It may not include you now, but make no mistake, it will. Don't think so? Show a saddlebred in a tailset to any non-saddlebred person. See what their first reaction is. That's what's in store for saddlebred people. These wack-o's will see no differance between tailsets and soring.
Go ahead and let these kooks influince how the HPA is re-written, and see where you are then. I promise you won't like it.
Got Silver?
tommygrl
12-12-2007, 12:32 AM
Cannot support the wack-o groups, but there must be enforcement, fair, accurate, objectively, and swiftly, of those who sore & do really cruel things to those TWH; that stuff really hurts. Why not continue to enforce the HPA as it is? Something seems to have happened at last year's Celebration; maybe that is a step in the right direction.
Fix the real perps, & leave the rest of us alone, without making more laws, or making existing laws unreasonably restrictive.
This thread makes me feel way more supported than before.
Fix the real perps, & leave the rest of us alone, without making more laws, or making existing laws unreasonably restrictive.
This thread makes me feel way more supported than before.
attafox
12-12-2007, 03:00 AM
The wackos are not responsible for the enforcement of the HPA. The HPA is still administered by a veterinarian who has categorically stated that ASBs are NOT sored and that there is no point in going to their shows (it was headed that way until he personally investigated ... again, one man making a difference). Additionally, while some ASBs are gaited, the gaited purists and those who define "gaited" breeds do not classified the ASB as a gaited breed.
Yes, the wackos are out there desiring to turn all horses free, but they are not the ones enforcing the HPA. Apples and oranges.
Yes, the wackos are out there desiring to turn all horses free, but they are not the ones enforcing the HPA. Apples and oranges.
AlbertaSaddler
12-12-2007, 11:35 AM
I wonder if the wackos have thought of this:
When the turned free horses begin to breed like rabbits, or deer, and the horses are eating the crops, the gardens, the wacko's food sources, what will they do then? When deer are the problem, hunting season rolls around and people can buy the tags for, and legally shoot, up to three deer each (at least where I live). This will cut down on the deer population. Now I know these wackos have an issue with this, but what will they do when horses are over running everything? Imagine the outcry when they open a hunting season on horses!
**Don't ever see that happening, I wouldn't want to hunt horses, but this is therorhetically (sp?) speaking**
I'm pretty sure they haven't thought past the point when all the horses are turned loose.
When the turned free horses begin to breed like rabbits, or deer, and the horses are eating the crops, the gardens, the wacko's food sources, what will they do then? When deer are the problem, hunting season rolls around and people can buy the tags for, and legally shoot, up to three deer each (at least where I live). This will cut down on the deer population. Now I know these wackos have an issue with this, but what will they do when horses are over running everything? Imagine the outcry when they open a hunting season on horses!
**Don't ever see that happening, I wouldn't want to hunt horses, but this is therorhetically (sp?) speaking**
I'm pretty sure they haven't thought past the point when all the horses are turned loose.
SteppinEasy
12-12-2007, 11:43 AM
The wackos are not responsible for the enforcement of the HPA. The HPA is still administered by a veterinarian who has categorically stated that ASBs are NOT sored and that there is no point in going to their shows (it was headed that way until he personally investigated ... again, one man making a difference). Additionally, while some ASBs are gaited, the gaited purists and those who define "gaited" breeds do not classified the ASB as a gaited breed.
Yes, the wackos are out there desiring to turn all horses free, but they are not the ones enforcing the HPA. Apples and oranges.
Thanks, attafox!;)
I've been involved with the fight against soring for a number of years (know all the issues far more intimately than anyone ever should) and ASBs have nothing to "fear." Neither do any of the other horse owners in any breed who don't sore or support those who do. Believe me.
It's similar to tee-totalers being "afraid" of police drunk-driving checkpoints. There's absolutely no need.
Yes, the wackos are out there desiring to turn all horses free, but they are not the ones enforcing the HPA. Apples and oranges.
Thanks, attafox!;)
I've been involved with the fight against soring for a number of years (know all the issues far more intimately than anyone ever should) and ASBs have nothing to "fear." Neither do any of the other horse owners in any breed who don't sore or support those who do. Believe me.
It's similar to tee-totalers being "afraid" of police drunk-driving checkpoints. There's absolutely no need.
smorrow923
12-12-2007, 03:46 PM
I read an article in the paper yesterday about the rising cost of eggs. I know I, personally, haven't given it much thought but seeing the price increases documented well, they are going up!
They cite the obvious reasons-gas prices (increase feed cost, increased production costs, etc) and then they put one statement about the lack of laying hens. Being an ag student at OSU, I know why there is a lack of laying hens. It's because so many gourps are so against chicken farmers(ie the whole cage free, free roaming, hormone free-what a joke!, etc) that no one wants to do it anymore! They get hasseled and then groups like these go to their neighborhoods and pass out propoganda and get the entire neighborhoods agiant these farms. Plus, it is more costly to produce cage free eggs and "free roaming" chickens(they're not really free roaming according to USDA standards). People fail to realize that with all this propoganda out there, and all these "wackos" filling their heads with lies, and therefore they agree with them, our prices of all animal products are going up.
They cite the obvious reasons-gas prices (increase feed cost, increased production costs, etc) and then they put one statement about the lack of laying hens. Being an ag student at OSU, I know why there is a lack of laying hens. It's because so many gourps are so against chicken farmers(ie the whole cage free, free roaming, hormone free-what a joke!, etc) that no one wants to do it anymore! They get hasseled and then groups like these go to their neighborhoods and pass out propoganda and get the entire neighborhoods agiant these farms. Plus, it is more costly to produce cage free eggs and "free roaming" chickens(they're not really free roaming according to USDA standards). People fail to realize that with all this propoganda out there, and all these "wackos" filling their heads with lies, and therefore they agree with them, our prices of all animal products are going up.
walkinghorseowner
12-14-2007, 03:56 PM
The HPA pertains to all breeds not just gaited..the only excemptions are times events(racing, jumping etc)..and right now they are having a problem with hypersensitive (sore) jumping horses..where they have been sored to make sure the don't hit the jumps...and yet these horses do not fall under the HPA..... so let's get off the TWH's back...we have a 98%+ rate of compliance ...we check every single horse that goes into the ring, before they are shown to guarantee that only sound horses show....
the TWH has been used as a method for the HSUS and other groups to get funding...you never hear the whole story..BTW Dr Gipson of the USDA has complemented the TWH repeatedly last year about our horses....to publicize that would deplete the funding that HSUS obtains from theose who want to "save" the TWH.... and when HSUS finishes ridiing the backs of the TWH your breed will be next..read their real agenda...
the TWH has been used as a method for the HSUS and other groups to get funding...you never hear the whole story..BTW Dr Gipson of the USDA has complemented the TWH repeatedly last year about our horses....to publicize that would deplete the funding that HSUS obtains from theose who want to "save" the TWH.... and when HSUS finishes ridiing the backs of the TWH your breed will be next..read their real agenda...
D_BaldStockings
12-14-2007, 04:05 PM
I agree with walkinghorseowner,
Note that Joe Public is heavily influenced by the media blitzes of the HSUS and PETA and many people believe that 'show shoes' are unnatural and as bad as soring because you can't turn a horse out in show shoes = you are cruel to the horse.
What the majority believe; they can legislate onto the minority.
Oh, yes, we are NOT out of the range of fire.
Mary
Note that Joe Public is heavily influenced by the media blitzes of the HSUS and PETA and many people believe that 'show shoes' are unnatural and as bad as soring because you can't turn a horse out in show shoes = you are cruel to the horse.
What the majority believe; they can legislate onto the minority.
Oh, yes, we are NOT out of the range of fire.
Mary
Silversaddle1
12-14-2007, 04:09 PM
In reguards to walkinghorseowner's reply. I wasn't on the TWH's back, i was on the HSUS's back.
Got Silver?
Got Silver?
walkinghorseowner
12-14-2007, 05:30 PM
Silver I didn't mean you...I refer to the people who are always calling the HPA a gaited law.. and think it should be enforced only against the walking horse, whom they are "sure" are terribly mistreated..... like I said a lot of the bad press is because a whipping boy is needed....have TWH had a problem, yes...are we addressing it..yes....
But after Keith Dane from the HSUS was given access by closed circuit TV to the entire inspection process, after the USDA was present at the inspection process at the 2007 celebration (which Dane witnessed)and commended the TWH...HSUS and Dane come out with those letters...their type will never be satisfied and they raise enough money to politic and buy celebrities.......their true agenda is frightening
But after Keith Dane from the HSUS was given access by closed circuit TV to the entire inspection process, after the USDA was present at the inspection process at the 2007 celebration (which Dane witnessed)and commended the TWH...HSUS and Dane come out with those letters...their type will never be satisfied and they raise enough money to politic and buy celebrities.......their true agenda is frightening
tommygrl
12-14-2007, 06:35 PM
What the majority believe; they can legislate onto the minority.
So true, D Baldstockings. And it doesn't have to be the majority, just a minority who can raise funds and lobby for changes in laws, then we are all stuck. The California mandatory spay/nueter, etc. laws of last summer are gearing up to return, maybe to include the 'companion animal' designations.
Earlier I made what sounded like too large a leap connecting the HPA & the wackos---they certainly are not the administrators. But the well organized, well funded wack-o groups such as PETA, etc. can effectively exaggerate or expand laws that the administrators must follow.
Skew stastistics or enflame what is considered cruel, whatever works in the small community or large state to advance their radical agenda. (Those groups' websites and agenda are scarry reading.)
Too often those without any real hands-on connection to animals won't analyze or investigate, just believe what some formally-righteous groups propagandize.
Is it really true that the HPA can be applied to any breed if need be?
So true, D Baldstockings. And it doesn't have to be the majority, just a minority who can raise funds and lobby for changes in laws, then we are all stuck. The California mandatory spay/nueter, etc. laws of last summer are gearing up to return, maybe to include the 'companion animal' designations.
Earlier I made what sounded like too large a leap connecting the HPA & the wackos---they certainly are not the administrators. But the well organized, well funded wack-o groups such as PETA, etc. can effectively exaggerate or expand laws that the administrators must follow.
Skew stastistics or enflame what is considered cruel, whatever works in the small community or large state to advance their radical agenda. (Those groups' websites and agenda are scarry reading.)
Too often those without any real hands-on connection to animals won't analyze or investigate, just believe what some formally-righteous groups propagandize.
Is it really true that the HPA can be applied to any breed if need be?
katie
12-14-2007, 09:40 PM
While while we're on gun-control, organizations supporting total animal liberation, and the like. I have a simple solution guaranteed to work. If we legalize marijuanna, then most of the people who go to those protests will be too lazy to go or to open their junk mail from PETA anymore. Problem Solved. :cool:
This totally cracked me up, Ubiquitous! I think you may have solved a lot of the world's problems with this statement.
This totally cracked me up, Ubiquitous! I think you may have solved a lot of the world's problems with this statement.
attafox
12-14-2007, 10:26 PM
Yes, the HPA can be applied to any breed. It was originally written and specified a particular breed, but that language was struck. However, it most specifically deals with sore horses and defines soring.
To read it in its entirety, see:
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_welfare/hp/hp_act_regs.shtml
There you can decide for yourself exactly what practices the HDA applies to and whether it applies to what you do with your horse (you being a general "you").
To read it in its entirety, see:
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_welfare/hp/hp_act_regs.shtml
There you can decide for yourself exactly what practices the HDA applies to and whether it applies to what you do with your horse (you being a general "you").
asb/mo
12-15-2007, 05:09 PM
I do have a question: I don't know if the Humane Society was responsible for the closing of the last horse rendering facility in the U. S. (it was in IL, I beleive), but now that there is none of these places available to send horses which are near death due to old age or disease, will it be better to let these types of horses - be they Saddlebreds or other breeds - just die? Or what is one to do with such an animal? Does the owner/caretaker have the horse euthanized and then call an animal carcass pickup company? Does this type of company exist? And if they do, what does that company then do with the remains? And what if the owner/caretaker doesn't have the funds to do this?
I'm just askikng out of curiosity - I don't own a horse with these conditions, so please don't jump on this post as construing I'm a non-caring owner. There are other compassionate horse lovers/owners/caretakers who are wondering, also.
I'm just askikng out of curiosity - I don't own a horse with these conditions, so please don't jump on this post as construing I'm a non-caring owner. There are other compassionate horse lovers/owners/caretakers who are wondering, also.
smorrow923
12-15-2007, 06:57 PM
I do have a question: I don't know if the Humane Society was responsible for the closing of the last horse rendering facility in the U. S. (it was in IL, I beleive), but now that there is none of these places available to send horses which are near death due to old age or disease, will it be better to let these types of horses - be they Saddlebreds or other breeds - just die? Or what is one to do with such an animal? Does the owner/caretaker have the horse euthanized and then call an animal carcass pickup company? Does this type of company exist? And if they do, what does that company then do with the remains? And what if the owner/caretaker doesn't have the funds to do this?
I'm just askikng out of curiosity - I don't own a horse with these conditions, so please don't jump on this post as construing I'm a non-caring owner. There are other compassionate horse lovers/owners/caretakers who are wondering, also.
Well, what HSUS hopes will happen is that all those aging horses/unwanted horses will be humanely euthanized (ie a vet putting them down). With the lack of land now, the owners will need to find somewhere to bury the animal or call a place that will cremate them or bury them. Which is expensive!!
What really is going to happen is people will just abandon the horses until they die and probably just let them lay there until they decompose. or let them "free"-which has been happening a lot around here(lots of horses being let loose because people don't want them/can't care fo rthem). or put them down themselves9which I'm OK with IF they know how to properly do it-but I'm afraid most people don't).
I'm just askikng out of curiosity - I don't own a horse with these conditions, so please don't jump on this post as construing I'm a non-caring owner. There are other compassionate horse lovers/owners/caretakers who are wondering, also.
Well, what HSUS hopes will happen is that all those aging horses/unwanted horses will be humanely euthanized (ie a vet putting them down). With the lack of land now, the owners will need to find somewhere to bury the animal or call a place that will cremate them or bury them. Which is expensive!!
What really is going to happen is people will just abandon the horses until they die and probably just let them lay there until they decompose. or let them "free"-which has been happening a lot around here(lots of horses being let loose because people don't want them/can't care fo rthem). or put them down themselves9which I'm OK with IF they know how to properly do it-but I'm afraid most people don't).
asb/mo
12-15-2007, 06:57 PM
I do have a question to which I'm sure someone will have an answer:
It's my understanding that the last horse rendering facility in the U. S. (I believe it was in IL) has now closed. If an owner/caretaker (of which I'm neither) has a horse which is near death due to age or incurable illness or disease, what do they do with the horse if they can afford the cost: euthanize it, then call a disposal company (are there such companies, and if so, what do they then do with the remains)? And if that owner/caretaker is unable to afford to pay for that option, what then? Is it more humane to just let the animal die a possibly prolonged agonizing death in a pasture, small lot or stall?
Please remember - I'm just asking for informational purposes on behalf of myself and several owners/caretakers who have raised the same question.
It's my understanding that the last horse rendering facility in the U. S. (I believe it was in IL) has now closed. If an owner/caretaker (of which I'm neither) has a horse which is near death due to age or incurable illness or disease, what do they do with the horse if they can afford the cost: euthanize it, then call a disposal company (are there such companies, and if so, what do they then do with the remains)? And if that owner/caretaker is unable to afford to pay for that option, what then? Is it more humane to just let the animal die a possibly prolonged agonizing death in a pasture, small lot or stall?
Please remember - I'm just asking for informational purposes on behalf of myself and several owners/caretakers who have raised the same question.
attafox
12-15-2007, 07:15 PM
It's not just the old that went to the slaughter house ... but to answer your question, just because the one in IL closed doesn't mean that horses aren't being shipped to Canada (which has opened additional slaughterhouses in response to the US ones closing) or Mexico.
The responsible thing to do with the elder statesmen is euthanasia. And yes, there are disposal companies that will take them to a rendering facility (different than a slaughterhouse - animals are already dead when they arrive there) or if the owner wants, to a crematorium.
The responsible thing to do with the elder statesmen is euthanasia. And yes, there are disposal companies that will take them to a rendering facility (different than a slaughterhouse - animals are already dead when they arrive there) or if the owner wants, to a crematorium.
Sunmaster
12-16-2007, 02:03 PM
And if that owner/caretaker is unable to afford to pay for that option, what then?
IMO, if an owner cannot afford to have a horse humanely euthanized, then he or she cannot afford to own a horse at all. Period.
As attafox stated it was a slaughter house, not a rendering plant, that closed. Horses are humanely euthanized before reaching a rendering facility. And while it may not be a pretty thing to think about, calling a rendering facility to remove a horse after it is dead is a viable option for those responsible horse owners who do right by their horse but don't have the space, means or zoning permit (ha) to bury their horse. On the other hand, horses arrive alive (though not necessarily without duress) at a slaughter house. They are then killed in a manner that is anything but humane. And judging by the rescues at SBR alone, it's not just the horses near death or with incurable diseases that end up bound for slaughter.
That said, if one does have a horse that is near death or suffering from an incurable disease, slaughter would be a cruel and violent way to end said horse's life. Sorry to sound harsh, but the argument that slaughter is a necessary evil because not everyone can afford humane euthanasia is a pet peeve of mine. Horses are an expensive pet/commodity/property/livestock what have you to maintain. They are also prone to any number of conditions or situations that can be quite costly, but are not life threatening. Care an maintenance can quickly add up to $300-$400...which is about what it costs to give a horse a humane and dignified end. If someone can't afford to euthanize a horse should the need arise...then he or she needs to reevaluate whether he or she should be owning a horse at all.
IMO, if an owner cannot afford to have a horse humanely euthanized, then he or she cannot afford to own a horse at all. Period.
As attafox stated it was a slaughter house, not a rendering plant, that closed. Horses are humanely euthanized before reaching a rendering facility. And while it may not be a pretty thing to think about, calling a rendering facility to remove a horse after it is dead is a viable option for those responsible horse owners who do right by their horse but don't have the space, means or zoning permit (ha) to bury their horse. On the other hand, horses arrive alive (though not necessarily without duress) at a slaughter house. They are then killed in a manner that is anything but humane. And judging by the rescues at SBR alone, it's not just the horses near death or with incurable diseases that end up bound for slaughter.
That said, if one does have a horse that is near death or suffering from an incurable disease, slaughter would be a cruel and violent way to end said horse's life. Sorry to sound harsh, but the argument that slaughter is a necessary evil because not everyone can afford humane euthanasia is a pet peeve of mine. Horses are an expensive pet/commodity/property/livestock what have you to maintain. They are also prone to any number of conditions or situations that can be quite costly, but are not life threatening. Care an maintenance can quickly add up to $300-$400...which is about what it costs to give a horse a humane and dignified end. If someone can't afford to euthanize a horse should the need arise...then he or she needs to reevaluate whether he or she should be owning a horse at all.
snowfool
12-16-2007, 02:33 PM
Horses are humanely euthanized before reaching a rendering facility. And while it may not be a pretty thing to think about, calling a rendering facility to remove a horse after it is dead is a viable option for those responsible horse owners who do right by their horse but don't have the space, means or zoning permit (ha) to bury their horse. .
Actually horses cannot be euthanized before being surrendered to a renderer. I was offered the rendering option when faced with putting down a horse awhile back and although we opted for euthanasia and burial on our farm, it was outlined to me that if we chose the renderer, then I had two choices - they were either captive bolt which the renderer themselves would do here on our farm, then haul the horse away, or we could shoot the horse and they would pick it up immediately. They cannot have the euthanasia drugs in their system in order to qualify for rendering. And yes, even though I chose a different option, rendering is a very viable option if you cannot bury the horse or do not choose to cremate.
Actually horses cannot be euthanized before being surrendered to a renderer. I was offered the rendering option when faced with putting down a horse awhile back and although we opted for euthanasia and burial on our farm, it was outlined to me that if we chose the renderer, then I had two choices - they were either captive bolt which the renderer themselves would do here on our farm, then haul the horse away, or we could shoot the horse and they would pick it up immediately. They cannot have the euthanasia drugs in their system in order to qualify for rendering. And yes, even though I chose a different option, rendering is a very viable option if you cannot bury the horse or do not choose to cremate.
ASB Stars
12-16-2007, 02:38 PM
There is a plant in this area that takes euthanized horses, and apparently makes fertilizer out of them. I have no idea whatsoever what the ramifications of that are, for the plants, that is, but Valley Protien has been taking in dead horses and cows, and other animals, for as long as I can remember, and processing them.
If you have a post mortem performed on your horse or pony at one of your local Vet hospitals, they dispose of the body after they complete their work. New Bolton has a crematory, I believe- but the I think that the ashes are mixed together- it is not offered as a private service by the school.
If you have a post mortem performed on your horse or pony at one of your local Vet hospitals, they dispose of the body after they complete their work. New Bolton has a crematory, I believe- but the I think that the ashes are mixed together- it is not offered as a private service by the school.
Sunmaster
12-16-2007, 02:46 PM
Actually horses cannot be euthanized before being surrendered to a renderer.
My apoligies, then. I must have misinterpreted our vet...or he was using the term renderer loosely in referring to someone else (weirdo with a dead horse collection?). I know through unfortunate personal experience that our vets humanely euthanized my horse and someone (referred to by the vets as renderers...sorry if I botched that spellling, eek) came for his remains. Was very sad and not my first choice...but without the land to bury him, was the only viable option we had at the time. All I know is he was humanely put to rest. Kept reminding myself that what was left was just an empty shell that someone (referred to as renderers...but could have been someone else) came and picked it up. It would have been over my dead body that he went out via captive bolt or gunshot.
My apoligies, then. I must have misinterpreted our vet...or he was using the term renderer loosely in referring to someone else (weirdo with a dead horse collection?). I know through unfortunate personal experience that our vets humanely euthanized my horse and someone (referred to by the vets as renderers...sorry if I botched that spellling, eek) came for his remains. Was very sad and not my first choice...but without the land to bury him, was the only viable option we had at the time. All I know is he was humanely put to rest. Kept reminding myself that what was left was just an empty shell that someone (referred to as renderers...but could have been someone else) came and picked it up. It would have been over my dead body that he went out via captive bolt or gunshot.
minny68
12-16-2007, 03:15 PM
We always had our vet euthanize and then the renderers would come and pick up the body for processing. I know that they cannot use the meat, but they do use the hair and hooves.
Has there been any updates on the appeal that Cavel is planning to launch?
Has there been any updates on the appeal that Cavel is planning to launch?
asb/mo
12-16-2007, 04:21 PM
Oops! My computer just broke loose, and I do see that my post was allowed.
smorrow923
12-16-2007, 04:32 PM
IMO, if an owner cannot afford to have a horse humanely euthanized, then he or she cannot afford to own a horse at all. Period.
You are EXACTLY right...
HOWEVER, there will always people who cannot afford horses who have them. These are where 80% of the horses at slaughter facilities come from. Not from the people who are responsible enough to have the money to fund a euthanasia-but the yahoos down the road who have a .5acre dirt lot and 6 horses which they insist on breeding every year to make more. It's those people who have put us in this position and unless you can pass a law that says you have to make at least X amount of dollars a year and spend Y amount of dollars towards your horses, these will always be the people who put us in this situation..
You are EXACTLY right...
HOWEVER, there will always people who cannot afford horses who have them. These are where 80% of the horses at slaughter facilities come from. Not from the people who are responsible enough to have the money to fund a euthanasia-but the yahoos down the road who have a .5acre dirt lot and 6 horses which they insist on breeding every year to make more. It's those people who have put us in this position and unless you can pass a law that says you have to make at least X amount of dollars a year and spend Y amount of dollars towards your horses, these will always be the people who put us in this situation..
attafox
12-16-2007, 07:37 PM
Sorry to disagree, but I have watched horses go through auctions just because people didn't want them - and the meat buyers bought them. These were not horses from people who couldn't afford them - they just didn't want them.
I talked to a rancher once in Texas - BIG ranch. Sends horses to slaughter every year when they are no longer useful to him. Doesn't try to sell them (too much trouble), can afford to euthanize, but sends them because he'll get a last bit of value out of these animals (who have spent their lives working cows for him).
Ferdinand, the TB race horse ended up at slaughter in Japan. A consortium owned him and had him at stud. When he became infertile, he became meat. Same people sent him to slaughter that spent thousands on airfare getting him there. Please don't delude yourself that it is only those who can't afford a horse that have horses that end up at the slaughter house.
Edited to add - because you can't bury horses in CA, all our euthanized horses either go to a crematorium or to the renderer. They definitely accept dead horses at the renderer out here (the nearest is in Riverside).
I talked to a rancher once in Texas - BIG ranch. Sends horses to slaughter every year when they are no longer useful to him. Doesn't try to sell them (too much trouble), can afford to euthanize, but sends them because he'll get a last bit of value out of these animals (who have spent their lives working cows for him).
Ferdinand, the TB race horse ended up at slaughter in Japan. A consortium owned him and had him at stud. When he became infertile, he became meat. Same people sent him to slaughter that spent thousands on airfare getting him there. Please don't delude yourself that it is only those who can't afford a horse that have horses that end up at the slaughter house.
Edited to add - because you can't bury horses in CA, all our euthanized horses either go to a crematorium or to the renderer. They definitely accept dead horses at the renderer out here (the nearest is in Riverside).
smorrow923
12-17-2007, 07:32 AM
Sorry to disagree, but I have watched horses go through auctions just because people didn't want them - and the meat buyers bought them. These were not horses from people who couldn't afford them - they just didn't want them.
You're right that lots of horses get thrown away. My 80% was a little overzealous, I'll admit. My main arument is that if poeple stopped breeding unwanted animals, we wouldn't have so much issue with this. I know big name barns (both arab and ASB) who pop out 60 or more horses every year. That to me is rediculous. One farm here in Ohio comes to mind that breeds TONS of mediocre babies every year. My first thought when I went there was that it was a horse mill-as opposed to a puppy mill.
You're right that lots of horses get thrown away. My 80% was a little overzealous, I'll admit. My main arument is that if poeple stopped breeding unwanted animals, we wouldn't have so much issue with this. I know big name barns (both arab and ASB) who pop out 60 or more horses every year. That to me is rediculous. One farm here in Ohio comes to mind that breeds TONS of mediocre babies every year. My first thought when I went there was that it was a horse mill-as opposed to a puppy mill.
AlbertaSaddler
12-17-2007, 01:20 PM
You're right that lots of horses get thrown away. My 80% was a little overzealous, I'll admit. My main argument is that if people stopped breeding unwanted animals, we wouldn't have so much issue with this. I know big name barns (both arab and ASB) who pop out 60 or more horses every year. That to me is rediculous. One farm here in Ohio comes to mind that breeds TONS of mediocre babies every year. My first thought when I went there was that it was a horse mill-as opposed to a puppy mill.
EXACTLY! Now why isn't something put in place where this can be somewhat controlled, or at the very least made a big deal about? The slaughter issue is like beating a dead horse (no puns or anything intended) No one really likes to send animals to slaughter, or think about it, but the slaughter issue could be dealt with a lot more effectively if there weren't so many horses!
I love horses, I think everyone on here does. But there is a huge problem with too many horses. I like baby horses too, but then they grow up. Then you have to do something with them, far too often they become "useless". (Objective point yes, but just roll with me here :))
EXACTLY! Now why isn't something put in place where this can be somewhat controlled, or at the very least made a big deal about? The slaughter issue is like beating a dead horse (no puns or anything intended) No one really likes to send animals to slaughter, or think about it, but the slaughter issue could be dealt with a lot more effectively if there weren't so many horses!
I love horses, I think everyone on here does. But there is a huge problem with too many horses. I like baby horses too, but then they grow up. Then you have to do something with them, far too often they become "useless". (Objective point yes, but just roll with me here :))
snowfool
12-17-2007, 02:49 PM
My apoligies, then. I must have misinterpreted our vet...or he was using the term renderer loosely in referring to someone else (weirdo with a dead horse collection?). I know through unfortunate personal experience that our vets humanely euthanized my horse and someone (referred to by the vets as renderers...sorry if I botched that spellling, eek) came for his remains. Was very sad and not my first choice...but without the land to bury him, was the only viable option we had at the time. All I know is he was humanely put to rest. Kept reminding myself that what was left was just an empty shell that someone (referred to as renderers...but could have been someone else) came and picked it up. It would have been over my dead body that he went out via captive bolt or gunshot.
Sunmaster - I just had a lengthy conversation with one of my vets because I wanted to know why I was told my horses could have no drugs in them to qualify for renderer pickup, and yet your horse could. Now I have a full explanation - it depends on what the renderer intends to do with the body. The particular renderer in my area only wants carcasses that can be used for consumable products (i.e., dog food, pelleted poultry feed). The renderer in your area might have only wanted the by-products such as hooves, mane and tail, cartilage, or hide for the protein mass.
So now we are both wiser ;) .
Susan
Sunmaster - I just had a lengthy conversation with one of my vets because I wanted to know why I was told my horses could have no drugs in them to qualify for renderer pickup, and yet your horse could. Now I have a full explanation - it depends on what the renderer intends to do with the body. The particular renderer in my area only wants carcasses that can be used for consumable products (i.e., dog food, pelleted poultry feed). The renderer in your area might have only wanted the by-products such as hooves, mane and tail, cartilage, or hide for the protein mass.
So now we are both wiser ;) .
Susan
Cherokee03
12-17-2007, 03:23 PM
My thoughts are you should only breed if you are prepared to keep the horse its entire life. Just like kids. People should only have the number that are affordable to them, so that the rest of the society doesn't have to fit the bill for the woman with 10 kids on welfare, food stamps and section 8! Yeah sure things come up Suzzie's in the 10th grade missed a pill that she got from the health department b/c she didn't want to tell her parents she was working the corner to buy herself crack and the guy slipped her ghbs and didn't wear a condom! (ok that went a little far) What was the original topic?
Everything is linked to money (ie. these investigations by the HS). If one horse isn't going to be the big money maker these big breeders have 23 more 2 year olds back on the farm. Some will use all possible means to get the edge. If they don't cut it they get outsted the quickest way possible. Not everyone is a true horse lover. True horses lovers are the ones that make sure they get good homes, and are prepared to give a life time home if there is no possibility of success.
Everything is linked to money (ie. these investigations by the HS). If one horse isn't going to be the big money maker these big breeders have 23 more 2 year olds back on the farm. Some will use all possible means to get the edge. If they don't cut it they get outsted the quickest way possible. Not everyone is a true horse lover. True horses lovers are the ones that make sure they get good homes, and are prepared to give a life time home if there is no possibility of success.
Silversaddle1
12-17-2007, 05:03 PM
EXACTLY! Now why isn't something put in place where this can be somewhat controlled, or at the very least made a big deal about?
How? More goverment programs/control? Who is going to decide who can and can't breed their horses?
Why do people alway think we have to "control" things? One thing for sure we don't need is bigger government.
Albertasaddler, I'm not picking on you, just pointing out the other side of your point!:)
How? More goverment programs/control? Who is going to decide who can and can't breed their horses?
Why do people alway think we have to "control" things? One thing for sure we don't need is bigger government.
Albertasaddler, I'm not picking on you, just pointing out the other side of your point!:)
Jackandmo
12-17-2007, 06:41 PM
My thoughts are you should only breed if you are prepared to keep the horse its entire life.
True horses lovers are the ones that make sure they get good homes, and are prepared to give a life time home if there is no possibility of success.
And those people are very few and far between, unfortunately. Horse breeding is a business for many people. It's not a hobby or a passion. So long as they get the horse off the property and the $$$ in their wallet, they could care less what happens after that.
True horses lovers are the ones that make sure they get good homes, and are prepared to give a life time home if there is no possibility of success.
And those people are very few and far between, unfortunately. Horse breeding is a business for many people. It's not a hobby or a passion. So long as they get the horse off the property and the $$$ in their wallet, they could care less what happens after that.
SaddlebredMom
12-17-2007, 08:08 PM
IMO, if an owner cannot afford to have a horse humanely euthanized, then he or she cannot afford to own a horse at all. Period.
Ditto what they said.
Ditto what they said.
AlbertaSaddler
12-18-2007, 11:53 AM
How? More goverment programs/control? Who is going to decide who can and can't breed their horses?
Why do people alway think we have to "control" things? One thing for sure we don't need is bigger government.
Albertasaddler, I'm not picking on you, just pointing out the other side of your point!:)
If I had a solution, I would have posted it. This was just something to think about, maybe someone else could expand on it.
I don't want controls on my breeding program either. As far as I can see and understand, you guys down there have many more gov't regs over things than we do. (On some things.)
What I have noticed now is up here, to get a job at the racetracks, and many big stables, you have to go through a college program. One is strictly geared towards grooming, mostly race horse stuff at this point. Another is for running a breeding program, the other an exercise/Jockey program.
So basically, to be a groom, or Jockey now, up here, you need to go to school. No more school of hard knocks. I was looking to work as an exercise rider once, and saw this course requirement.
Then I looked at running breeding programs for various different breeds, same thing, get my butt to the College and take the breeding program. Maybe this is what needs to happen. If you want to be a recognized breeder, go to school. I know this won't stop the back yard breeders, but maybe it might. Maybe it's just wishful thinking.
Why do people alway think we have to "control" things? One thing for sure we don't need is bigger government.
Albertasaddler, I'm not picking on you, just pointing out the other side of your point!:)
If I had a solution, I would have posted it. This was just something to think about, maybe someone else could expand on it.
I don't want controls on my breeding program either. As far as I can see and understand, you guys down there have many more gov't regs over things than we do. (On some things.)
What I have noticed now is up here, to get a job at the racetracks, and many big stables, you have to go through a college program. One is strictly geared towards grooming, mostly race horse stuff at this point. Another is for running a breeding program, the other an exercise/Jockey program.
So basically, to be a groom, or Jockey now, up here, you need to go to school. No more school of hard knocks. I was looking to work as an exercise rider once, and saw this course requirement.
Then I looked at running breeding programs for various different breeds, same thing, get my butt to the College and take the breeding program. Maybe this is what needs to happen. If you want to be a recognized breeder, go to school. I know this won't stop the back yard breeders, but maybe it might. Maybe it's just wishful thinking.
Greg Doggett
08-06-2008, 12:14 PM
The HSUS, PETA and other such organizations are a bunch of WACKOS. I have had some them tell me that just riding a horse is cruel and should be banned. If my horse recieves an injury to his foot in the pasture (and we all know that a stud horse will stick his feet anywhere it could possibly get into trouble, even in a padded stall), I could not show my horse because the quacks that work for the USDA would say that it is a violation of the scar rule. The scar rule is intended for scars resulting from soring practices but they carry it overboard. They have a sniffer that detects foreign substances. If you wash your horse with soap and the sniffer picks it up, you are in violation according to the USDA. IF YOU GIVE THESE PEOPLE AN INCH THEY WILL TAKE A MILE. BELIEVE ME, THEY ARE WACKOS, THEY WILL COME AFTER SADDLEBREDS.
VLayne
08-06-2008, 12:26 PM
If my horse recieves an injury to his foot in the pasture (and we all know that a stud horse will stick his feet anywhere it could possibly get into trouble, even in a padded stall), I could not show my horse because the quacks that work for the USDA would say that it is a violation of the scar rule.
Not true. The scars have to be on BOTH ankles and they have to be consistent with soring. If your horse injures himself on one leg, you would be fine in the inspection. If an inspector dq's a horse with only one scar, or scars that are not what you see from soring, they are not following the rules.
They have a sniffer that detects foreign substances. If you wash your horse with soap and the sniffer picks it up, you are in violation according to the USDA.
This is also not true. The sniffer is calibrated for specific substances. Soap, show sheen, fly spray, etc will not set it off.
I have read every word of the documents to come out of the USDA meetings in the last several years. It sounds to me like the rules they have in place are fair and have the best interests of the horse in mind. I think the real problem is that they hire incompetent inspectors or inspectors who take liberties with the rules.
I have NO problem with them "coming after" Saddlebreds. We do not sore our horses. Every time the USDA has shown up at a show that had ASBs, every single ASB passed their tests. (And they had soap, show sheen and fly spray on their legs, and are worked in chains and stretchies and were not sore...)
I do agree that PETA and a lot of other "animal welfare" folks are wackos... they take it TOO far many times.
Not true. The scars have to be on BOTH ankles and they have to be consistent with soring. If your horse injures himself on one leg, you would be fine in the inspection. If an inspector dq's a horse with only one scar, or scars that are not what you see from soring, they are not following the rules.
They have a sniffer that detects foreign substances. If you wash your horse with soap and the sniffer picks it up, you are in violation according to the USDA.
This is also not true. The sniffer is calibrated for specific substances. Soap, show sheen, fly spray, etc will not set it off.
I have read every word of the documents to come out of the USDA meetings in the last several years. It sounds to me like the rules they have in place are fair and have the best interests of the horse in mind. I think the real problem is that they hire incompetent inspectors or inspectors who take liberties with the rules.
I have NO problem with them "coming after" Saddlebreds. We do not sore our horses. Every time the USDA has shown up at a show that had ASBs, every single ASB passed their tests. (And they had soap, show sheen and fly spray on their legs, and are worked in chains and stretchies and were not sore...)
I do agree that PETA and a lot of other "animal welfare" folks are wackos... they take it TOO far many times.
Greg Doggett
08-06-2008, 01:33 PM
You are correct about the scar rule, but as you said, the people they hire to inspect do not always interpet the rule to mean both feet. I personally believe that Dr. Bher and Dr Gipson are two of the ones who go overboard.
Also, when they come after Saddlebreds it won't be for soring. It will be other things. Like the tail set or the double bit bridle or even the small pads that we use. They will find something.
Also, when they come after Saddlebreds it won't be for soring. It will be other things. Like the tail set or the double bit bridle or even the small pads that we use. They will find something.
trotterbuff
09-19-2008, 08:18 PM
Greg
Preach on brother, anyone with a horse in captivity thinking they are safe from the menace of the do-gooders has their head way too deep in the sand. They won't even see it coming. Pow! By the way, any relation to the Colonel?
The only reason they are not on top of the ASBs and other show breeds yet is that they have gotten way too much money rolling in with their malicious, false accusations about the TWHs. They continually use outdated photos to prove their story. There are a very few horrible trainers left out there, but they are being weeded out quickly, as well they should be.
But they will eventually come after all horse owners. After all, it is cruel to even "OWN" a horse, they all should be free to run and play; you know, without a care in the world. Out in the real world where oats and hay abound for the taking. Where there is no more trouble or sorrow, no master, just peace, food, water and fun, fun, fun. Yeah right. Oh! I almost forgot to mention the lovely sugar-cube trees that are everywhere, just waiting to be plucked. Sorry, enough sarcasm.
Preach on brother, anyone with a horse in captivity thinking they are safe from the menace of the do-gooders has their head way too deep in the sand. They won't even see it coming. Pow! By the way, any relation to the Colonel?
The only reason they are not on top of the ASBs and other show breeds yet is that they have gotten way too much money rolling in with their malicious, false accusations about the TWHs. They continually use outdated photos to prove their story. There are a very few horrible trainers left out there, but they are being weeded out quickly, as well they should be.
But they will eventually come after all horse owners. After all, it is cruel to even "OWN" a horse, they all should be free to run and play; you know, without a care in the world. Out in the real world where oats and hay abound for the taking. Where there is no more trouble or sorrow, no master, just peace, food, water and fun, fun, fun. Yeah right. Oh! I almost forgot to mention the lovely sugar-cube trees that are everywhere, just waiting to be plucked. Sorry, enough sarcasm.
horseluvr
09-20-2008, 03:30 PM
I pitched the whole thing in the trash soon after I opened the envelope and read the letter. Let's talk about all the trees that they killed to send out their little labels and notepads that I just threw n the garbage.
Did exactly the same!
Did exactly the same!
silvia
09-21-2008, 07:33 AM
It always interests me how different the USA is to Australia.
You can't carry guns here. You can have a gun license (for a good reason) and any gun you own must be locked in a special gun safe at home. Yet somehow we haven't been shot dead in our beds :whistling:
"Saddlebreds are next" well how can they be next when for years I keep hearing how everything done to Saddlebreds for Saddleseat classes is humane and doesn't hurt or bother the horse. So no need to worry!
You can't carry guns here. You can have a gun license (for a good reason) and any gun you own must be locked in a special gun safe at home. Yet somehow we haven't been shot dead in our beds :whistling:
"Saddlebreds are next" well how can they be next when for years I keep hearing how everything done to Saddlebreds for Saddleseat classes is humane and doesn't hurt or bother the horse. So no need to worry!
TwhTasha
09-21-2008, 07:53 AM
The head veterinarian in charge of the HPA enforcement has been to L'ville and has publicly stated that there is no reason to inspect ASBs as the soring just doesn't occur in the industry.
Are you sure?
Because....
We had a USDA inspector (Dr. Poe) who was appointed head of the inspection program a couple years ago tell the Walking Horse folks in East Tennessee last year at a clinic that they do inspect Saddlebreds at times and they will go forward with more inspections in that breed if the budget becomes available.
And now, groups like PETA (which I can not STAND) and other animal rights groups are raising funds and DONATING them to the USDA inspection process. They are no longer getting their budget from government funds only.
Are you sure?
Because....
We had a USDA inspector (Dr. Poe) who was appointed head of the inspection program a couple years ago tell the Walking Horse folks in East Tennessee last year at a clinic that they do inspect Saddlebreds at times and they will go forward with more inspections in that breed if the budget becomes available.
And now, groups like PETA (which I can not STAND) and other animal rights groups are raising funds and DONATING them to the USDA inspection process. They are no longer getting their budget from government funds only.
TwhTasha
09-21-2008, 08:26 AM
Not true. The scars have to be on BOTH ankles and they have to be consistent with soring. If your horse injures himself on one leg, you would be fine in the inspection.
WRONG! I have to ask - how many TWH horse shows have you been to and watched the USDA check? I have seen COUNTLESS horses, even trail pleasure horses turned pulled out of the field turned down for scars on one foot. Tickets are often written for 'one footers'. The USDA SAID they would not give tickets for scars on one foot, SAID that as long as no ridges appeared on the pasterns the horse would be fine BUT they are going back on what they said would be fine. This is the entire problem with the inspection process. No consistancy!
If an inspector dq's a horse with only one scar, or scars that are not what you see from soring, they are not following the rules.
That's the entire center of the frustration with the TWH people. What they say is fine tonight may get turned down tomorrow and that is what we are so upset about.
I think the real problem is that they hire incompetent inspectors or inspectors who take liberties with the rules.
Most of your USDA inspectors are just people that the government has no other place for in their agency. They are not even trained in basic horse knowledge, let alone qualified to inspect show horses. I saw three ladies at White Pine back in June ask the SHOW VET how to PICK UP A HORSES FOOT! They didn't even know how. I wouldn't have lead my grandma through those inspectors!
I, along with 99.9 percent of the Walking Horse people, have NO PROBLEM with USDA inspections - if they were consistent and the inspectors were trained. But they aren't. And I don't even own padded horses. I have pleasure horses and I have one pleasure horse that I would be iffy about letting the USDA inspect. He is a versatility horse. Has old barbed wire scars on both pasterns. He has cleared USDA inspections before but with the way they are checking now, I don't know if he would pass or not. People just don't know what to expect. They say one thing and do another.
I have NO problem with them "coming after" Saddlebreds. We do not sore our horses. Every time the USDA has shown up at a show that had ASBs, every single ASB passed their tests. (And they had soap, show sheen and fly spray on their legs, and are worked in chains and stretchies and were not sore...)
Like someone else said, they will not come after you for soring. They will find something else - especially if the tree hugging animal rights people riot behind it. Their goal is to eliminate anything they believe is un-natural or cruel to the horse. You honestly think they are going to leave anything alone that wears pads and steps higher than a daisy? I don't think so.
I do agree that PETA and a lot of other "animal welfare" folks are wackos... they take it TOO far many times.
And it's getting worse. Ever so slowly, the government is taking rights away from Americans (I don't mean to sound like a nut here but it's true). It happened on the slaughter issue. I'm sorry - I don't like horse slaughter either but it was a big business for the United States and gave somewhere for unwanted horses to go. The idiots in Washington listened to the animal rights groups and shut the slaughter houses down. Now they are wasting more tax dollars trying to find a solution to the problem. Duh! Reverse what they voted on. You have horses now that are STARVING to death which is more abuse than they would have had going to slaughter. And to me, the USDA could be better spending their money taking care of REAL abuse like the straving horses. Not crawling around a horses leg trying to find a hair out of place (and yes I have seen them get down with a magnifying glass and look at a horse 30 minutes or more TRYING to find a scar!) Now people - you KNOW if it resorts to that - they are looking for something, not doing their job.
Common sense has went out the door and out of all people...the American Saddlebred folks should see this! Stop reading all the balony the press prints and start really looking into it for yourself. I'm not trying to be rude or offend anyone, I'm just trying to get my point across. I love the ASB like I do the Walker. I know many fine ASB people and love you all to death but it irritates me that people can not see what is going on. If the horse industry as a whole doesn't come together, we will see an end to the show ring world. It may take decades but it will happen.
Alright...off my soap box! :001_9898:
WRONG! I have to ask - how many TWH horse shows have you been to and watched the USDA check? I have seen COUNTLESS horses, even trail pleasure horses turned pulled out of the field turned down for scars on one foot. Tickets are often written for 'one footers'. The USDA SAID they would not give tickets for scars on one foot, SAID that as long as no ridges appeared on the pasterns the horse would be fine BUT they are going back on what they said would be fine. This is the entire problem with the inspection process. No consistancy!
If an inspector dq's a horse with only one scar, or scars that are not what you see from soring, they are not following the rules.
That's the entire center of the frustration with the TWH people. What they say is fine tonight may get turned down tomorrow and that is what we are so upset about.
I think the real problem is that they hire incompetent inspectors or inspectors who take liberties with the rules.
Most of your USDA inspectors are just people that the government has no other place for in their agency. They are not even trained in basic horse knowledge, let alone qualified to inspect show horses. I saw three ladies at White Pine back in June ask the SHOW VET how to PICK UP A HORSES FOOT! They didn't even know how. I wouldn't have lead my grandma through those inspectors!
I, along with 99.9 percent of the Walking Horse people, have NO PROBLEM with USDA inspections - if they were consistent and the inspectors were trained. But they aren't. And I don't even own padded horses. I have pleasure horses and I have one pleasure horse that I would be iffy about letting the USDA inspect. He is a versatility horse. Has old barbed wire scars on both pasterns. He has cleared USDA inspections before but with the way they are checking now, I don't know if he would pass or not. People just don't know what to expect. They say one thing and do another.
I have NO problem with them "coming after" Saddlebreds. We do not sore our horses. Every time the USDA has shown up at a show that had ASBs, every single ASB passed their tests. (And they had soap, show sheen and fly spray on their legs, and are worked in chains and stretchies and were not sore...)
Like someone else said, they will not come after you for soring. They will find something else - especially if the tree hugging animal rights people riot behind it. Their goal is to eliminate anything they believe is un-natural or cruel to the horse. You honestly think they are going to leave anything alone that wears pads and steps higher than a daisy? I don't think so.
I do agree that PETA and a lot of other "animal welfare" folks are wackos... they take it TOO far many times.
And it's getting worse. Ever so slowly, the government is taking rights away from Americans (I don't mean to sound like a nut here but it's true). It happened on the slaughter issue. I'm sorry - I don't like horse slaughter either but it was a big business for the United States and gave somewhere for unwanted horses to go. The idiots in Washington listened to the animal rights groups and shut the slaughter houses down. Now they are wasting more tax dollars trying to find a solution to the problem. Duh! Reverse what they voted on. You have horses now that are STARVING to death which is more abuse than they would have had going to slaughter. And to me, the USDA could be better spending their money taking care of REAL abuse like the straving horses. Not crawling around a horses leg trying to find a hair out of place (and yes I have seen them get down with a magnifying glass and look at a horse 30 minutes or more TRYING to find a scar!) Now people - you KNOW if it resorts to that - they are looking for something, not doing their job.
Common sense has went out the door and out of all people...the American Saddlebred folks should see this! Stop reading all the balony the press prints and start really looking into it for yourself. I'm not trying to be rude or offend anyone, I'm just trying to get my point across. I love the ASB like I do the Walker. I know many fine ASB people and love you all to death but it irritates me that people can not see what is going on. If the horse industry as a whole doesn't come together, we will see an end to the show ring world. It may take decades but it will happen.
Alright...off my soap box! :001_9898:
TwhTasha
09-21-2008, 08:45 AM
Preach on brother, anyone with a horse in captivity thinking they are safe from the menace of the do-gooders has their head way too deep in the sand. They won't even see it coming. Pow! By the way, any relation to the Colonel?
The only reason they are not on top of the ASBs and other show breeds yet is that they have gotten way too much money rolling in with their malicious, false accusations about the TWHs. They continually use outdated photos to prove their story. There are a very few horrible trainers left out there, but they are being weeded out quickly, as well they should be.
But they will eventually come after all horse owners. After all, it is cruel to even "OWN" a horse, they all should be free to run and play; you know, without a care in the world. Out in the real world where oats and hay abound for the taking. Where there is no more trouble or sorrow, no master, just peace, food, water and fun, fun, fun. Yeah right. Oh! I almost forgot to mention the lovely sugar-cube trees that are everywhere, just waiting to be plucked. Sorry, enough sarcasm.
LOL! AMEN! Like I said above, they listened to the tree huggers on the slaughter issue and look what happened. I wonder what these same people think about the thousands of starving horses that is now left to die. That is cruel, imo.
I can honestly say after being in countless show barns in Tennessee and Kentucky that I have NEVER seen any horse in the extreme pain or laying down in his stall or unable to walk out of his stall like these animal groups say goes on. And you're right on the usage of outdated photos. They know if they had new images of today's Walking horse, they wouldn't have a case because the walking horse of today is as clean as ever!
I do wish the pads could be reduced a little, so the public perception would not be as harsh on the 'stacks'. Noticed I said reduced 'a little'. It does look a little odd to someone outside the breed, despite the fact that study after study has PROVED the pads they wear today do not hurt the horse. At this point, public image is important to the walking horse.
The only reason they are not on top of the ASBs and other show breeds yet is that they have gotten way too much money rolling in with their malicious, false accusations about the TWHs. They continually use outdated photos to prove their story. There are a very few horrible trainers left out there, but they are being weeded out quickly, as well they should be.
But they will eventually come after all horse owners. After all, it is cruel to even "OWN" a horse, they all should be free to run and play; you know, without a care in the world. Out in the real world where oats and hay abound for the taking. Where there is no more trouble or sorrow, no master, just peace, food, water and fun, fun, fun. Yeah right. Oh! I almost forgot to mention the lovely sugar-cube trees that are everywhere, just waiting to be plucked. Sorry, enough sarcasm.
LOL! AMEN! Like I said above, they listened to the tree huggers on the slaughter issue and look what happened. I wonder what these same people think about the thousands of starving horses that is now left to die. That is cruel, imo.
I can honestly say after being in countless show barns in Tennessee and Kentucky that I have NEVER seen any horse in the extreme pain or laying down in his stall or unable to walk out of his stall like these animal groups say goes on. And you're right on the usage of outdated photos. They know if they had new images of today's Walking horse, they wouldn't have a case because the walking horse of today is as clean as ever!
I do wish the pads could be reduced a little, so the public perception would not be as harsh on the 'stacks'. Noticed I said reduced 'a little'. It does look a little odd to someone outside the breed, despite the fact that study after study has PROVED the pads they wear today do not hurt the horse. At this point, public image is important to the walking horse.
Kalin
09-21-2008, 12:26 PM
This is also not true. The sniffer is calibrated for specific substances. Soap, show sheen, fly spray, etc will not set it off.
Not quite...
This is from about 10 minutes worth of Googling some of the banned substances:
Espree Aloe Herbal Horse Spray, Cowboy Magic Spot Remover, Cowboy Magic Demineralizing Conditioner, Cowboy Magic Green Spot Remover, and Cowboy Magic Conditioner contain Octyl Methoxycinnamate.
Vetrolin liniment contains Methyl Salicylate, so does a medicated poultice made by Absorbine and many, many other such products.
Show Sheen as well as fly sprays (Ultra Shield, DuraGuard, FlyPel and Brute brands) contain Silicone-based components, the detangler version of Show Sheen contains Dimethicone.
Mr. Groom Skin & Coat Conditioner contains Isopropyl Myristate and Absorbine makes RefreshMint, a body wash and leg brace that also contains it.
Jeffers makes a cooling shampoo that contains Menthol, there is also a cough-relief product marketed that sprays Menthol into the stall.
Not quite...
This is from about 10 minutes worth of Googling some of the banned substances:
Espree Aloe Herbal Horse Spray, Cowboy Magic Spot Remover, Cowboy Magic Demineralizing Conditioner, Cowboy Magic Green Spot Remover, and Cowboy Magic Conditioner contain Octyl Methoxycinnamate.
Vetrolin liniment contains Methyl Salicylate, so does a medicated poultice made by Absorbine and many, many other such products.
Show Sheen as well as fly sprays (Ultra Shield, DuraGuard, FlyPel and Brute brands) contain Silicone-based components, the detangler version of Show Sheen contains Dimethicone.
Mr. Groom Skin & Coat Conditioner contains Isopropyl Myristate and Absorbine makes RefreshMint, a body wash and leg brace that also contains it.
Jeffers makes a cooling shampoo that contains Menthol, there is also a cough-relief product marketed that sprays Menthol into the stall.
VLayne
09-21-2008, 10:33 PM
The PPM of the substances contained in those products is far less than what's required to sore a horse or hide the soring of a horse.
And there are plenty of products out there without those ingredients. Pick a different one to use.
And there are plenty of products out there without those ingredients. Pick a different one to use.
Kalin
09-22-2008, 01:15 AM
The PPM of the substances contained in those products is far less than what's required to sore a horse or hide the soring of a horse.
It doesn't matter if the substance is used for soring the horse, grooming the horse or is introduced via some other method (ie: through the hands of the inspector). If it's found to be on the horse's legs, it's a violation, and amount doesn't matter.
From a USDA press release:
GC/MS is a testing technique used to identify the composition of chemical mixtures, which are sometimes applied to horses’ legs. APHIS collects the samples at shows and sends them to USDA’s National Veterinary Services Laboratories (NVSL) in Ames, Iowa, where testing is conducted to identify any chemicals in the samples. GC/MS can detect minute amounts of substances. Prior to GC/MS analytical techniques, foreign substances were detected by sight or smell.
And there are plenty of products out there without those ingredients. Pick a different one to use.
Right, that's what has to be done. But saying that the sniffer won't be set off by "soap, show sheen, fly spray, etc." is highly erroneous.
It doesn't matter if the substance is used for soring the horse, grooming the horse or is introduced via some other method (ie: through the hands of the inspector). If it's found to be on the horse's legs, it's a violation, and amount doesn't matter.
From a USDA press release:
GC/MS is a testing technique used to identify the composition of chemical mixtures, which are sometimes applied to horses’ legs. APHIS collects the samples at shows and sends them to USDA’s National Veterinary Services Laboratories (NVSL) in Ames, Iowa, where testing is conducted to identify any chemicals in the samples. GC/MS can detect minute amounts of substances. Prior to GC/MS analytical techniques, foreign substances were detected by sight or smell.
And there are plenty of products out there without those ingredients. Pick a different one to use.
Right, that's what has to be done. But saying that the sniffer won't be set off by "soap, show sheen, fly spray, etc." is highly erroneous.
smorrow923
09-22-2008, 07:34 AM
I do agree that PETA and a lot of other "animal welfare" folks are wackos... they take it TOO far many times.
Make sure you know the difference between animal welfare and animal rights. HSUS and PETA are animal rights activists. The rights activits are the ones who want to ban gestation crates, they're the ones all up in arms about soring, they're the ones that don't want us to keep dogs and cats and horses as pets and inside stalls. They think animals have all the same rights as humans.
Animal welfareists really just want proper treatment of animals. No excessive beating, clean pens, as comfortable as possible living situations. They just want to be sure that we, as humans, are treating the animals properly.
There is a big difference so make sure you reference the correct ones. The walfare people aren't the ones who want to take your horses away and want to make sure you can't have pets. Those are the rights people. And HSUS and PETA are definately rights groups.
Make sure you know the difference between animal welfare and animal rights. HSUS and PETA are animal rights activists. The rights activits are the ones who want to ban gestation crates, they're the ones all up in arms about soring, they're the ones that don't want us to keep dogs and cats and horses as pets and inside stalls. They think animals have all the same rights as humans.
Animal welfareists really just want proper treatment of animals. No excessive beating, clean pens, as comfortable as possible living situations. They just want to be sure that we, as humans, are treating the animals properly.
There is a big difference so make sure you reference the correct ones. The walfare people aren't the ones who want to take your horses away and want to make sure you can't have pets. Those are the rights people. And HSUS and PETA are definately rights groups.
SteppinEasy
09-22-2008, 11:37 AM
They know if they had new images of today's Walking horse, they wouldn't have a case because the walking horse of today is as clean as ever!
...
I do wish the pads could be reduced a little, so the public perception would not be as harsh on the 'stacks'. Noticed I said reduced 'a little'. It does look a little odd to someone outside the breed, despite the fact that study after study has PROVED the pads they wear today do not hurt the horse. At this point, public image is important to the walking horse.
I think the fact that they are "as clean as ever" is the whole problem!:oops:
But regarding those "studies" that "proved" pads don't damage the horse, could you please name them? The Auburn report (it did not claim to be anything other than a speculative report on a tiny sample of horses, so it doesn't meet the criteria for being considered a study) people like to bandy about did no such thing, and there has yet to be any other true, completed scientific study performed by independent researchers that comes remotely close to that, either.
And incidently, VLayne is absolutely correct about the scar rule: scars have to be uniform and on both legs. You can get a one-foot sore violation, but not a one-foot scar violation. Yes, I've been through inspection recently with a Trail/Country Pleasure gelding who has a HUGE wire cut scar on one foot...the only thing anyone has ever said to us was "Wow, that was a bad wire cut, huh?" And yes, this was one of the USDA inspectors.
About the sniffer and the grooming ingredients...GoJo (a cleaning product) is still one of the preferred soring agents.
...
I do wish the pads could be reduced a little, so the public perception would not be as harsh on the 'stacks'. Noticed I said reduced 'a little'. It does look a little odd to someone outside the breed, despite the fact that study after study has PROVED the pads they wear today do not hurt the horse. At this point, public image is important to the walking horse.
I think the fact that they are "as clean as ever" is the whole problem!:oops:
But regarding those "studies" that "proved" pads don't damage the horse, could you please name them? The Auburn report (it did not claim to be anything other than a speculative report on a tiny sample of horses, so it doesn't meet the criteria for being considered a study) people like to bandy about did no such thing, and there has yet to be any other true, completed scientific study performed by independent researchers that comes remotely close to that, either.
And incidently, VLayne is absolutely correct about the scar rule: scars have to be uniform and on both legs. You can get a one-foot sore violation, but not a one-foot scar violation. Yes, I've been through inspection recently with a Trail/Country Pleasure gelding who has a HUGE wire cut scar on one foot...the only thing anyone has ever said to us was "Wow, that was a bad wire cut, huh?" And yes, this was one of the USDA inspectors.
About the sniffer and the grooming ingredients...GoJo (a cleaning product) is still one of the preferred soring agents.
SaddlebredMom
09-22-2008, 12:17 PM
It doesn't matter if the substance is used for soring the horse, grooming the horse or is introduced via some other method (ie: through the hands of the inspector). If it's found to be on the horse's legs, it's a violation, and amount doesn't matter.
From a USDA press release:
GC/MS is a testing technique used to identify the composition of chemical mixtures, which are sometimes applied to horses’ legs. APHIS collects the samples at shows and sends them to USDA’s National Veterinary Services Laboratories (NVSL) in Ames, Iowa, where testing is conducted to identify any chemicals in the samples. GC/MS can detect minute amounts of substances. Prior to GC/MS analytical techniques, foreign substances were detected by sight or smell.
:confused1: Are you saying that the "sniffers" are GC-Mass Spec (gas chromatography-mass spectrometry) machines??
I am very familiar with the GC-Mass Spec as a major forensic tool which identifies substances via their specific molecular compound and structure, which is why it is a 100% fool proof testing method. However, the last I knew, the GC-Mass Spec needed an actual tangible sample to test, a piece of matter, -- not just a "sniff". :huh:
If the USDA is using the GC-Mass Spec, they are taking actual samples of hair, skin, tissue, etc., and sending that out to their lab for testing. This test is not just a cursory sampling of air . . .
From a USDA press release:
GC/MS is a testing technique used to identify the composition of chemical mixtures, which are sometimes applied to horses’ legs. APHIS collects the samples at shows and sends them to USDA’s National Veterinary Services Laboratories (NVSL) in Ames, Iowa, where testing is conducted to identify any chemicals in the samples. GC/MS can detect minute amounts of substances. Prior to GC/MS analytical techniques, foreign substances were detected by sight or smell.
:confused1: Are you saying that the "sniffers" are GC-Mass Spec (gas chromatography-mass spectrometry) machines??
I am very familiar with the GC-Mass Spec as a major forensic tool which identifies substances via their specific molecular compound and structure, which is why it is a 100% fool proof testing method. However, the last I knew, the GC-Mass Spec needed an actual tangible sample to test, a piece of matter, -- not just a "sniff". :huh:
If the USDA is using the GC-Mass Spec, they are taking actual samples of hair, skin, tissue, etc., and sending that out to their lab for testing. This test is not just a cursory sampling of air . . .
VLayne
09-22-2008, 12:21 PM
I figure the "study" done to prove that pads, chains, stretchies, etc. do not cause harm to a horse was performed repeatedly at the vaunted Laboratory of Life.
Meaning - decades upon decades of horses have worn these things. If there were truly harm caused, it would have become evident fairly quickly in the process and either fixed, or halted. I've been in the ASB world for over 20 years and have yet to experience an animal harmed by pads, weighted shoes, chains, stretches, running W's, etc. OTHER THAN the horses being trained or shod by idiots. ANY device or method can cause harm when applied incorrectly (check out the natural trim... :glare:). But I'd have to say that the vast majority of Saddlebreds, Morgans, TWH and any other horse wearing stacks of pads and worked in action devices does not get sore, injured or ruined by those devices.
How many "senior" show horses are still performing after a lifetime of this work? PLENTY. Certainly enough to prove that it is not harmful. Why does a study need to be done?
Oh, wait, I know. For the people who dislike it all. I truly wish someone WOULD do the study... just to take away their argument. And, if the study showed some kind of injury or harm occurring that doesn't normally take place in the process of riding or driving a horse without pads or chains, then I'd want to know so I can stop hurting my horse.
Meaning - decades upon decades of horses have worn these things. If there were truly harm caused, it would have become evident fairly quickly in the process and either fixed, or halted. I've been in the ASB world for over 20 years and have yet to experience an animal harmed by pads, weighted shoes, chains, stretches, running W's, etc. OTHER THAN the horses being trained or shod by idiots. ANY device or method can cause harm when applied incorrectly (check out the natural trim... :glare:). But I'd have to say that the vast majority of Saddlebreds, Morgans, TWH and any other horse wearing stacks of pads and worked in action devices does not get sore, injured or ruined by those devices.
How many "senior" show horses are still performing after a lifetime of this work? PLENTY. Certainly enough to prove that it is not harmful. Why does a study need to be done?
Oh, wait, I know. For the people who dislike it all. I truly wish someone WOULD do the study... just to take away their argument. And, if the study showed some kind of injury or harm occurring that doesn't normally take place in the process of riding or driving a horse without pads or chains, then I'd want to know so I can stop hurting my horse.
VLayne
09-22-2008, 12:24 PM
:confused1: Are you saying that the "sniffers" are GC-Mass Spec (gas chromatography-mass spectrometry) machines??
I am very familiar with the GC-Mass Spec as a major forensic tool which identifies substances via their specific molecular compound and structure, which is why it is a 100% fool proof testing method. However, the last I knew, the GC-Mass Spec needed an actual tangible sample to test, a piece of matter, -- not just a "sniff". :huh:
If the USDA is using the GC-Mass Spec, they are taking actual samples of hair, skin, tissue, etc., and sending that out to their lab for testing. This test is not just a cursory sampling of air . . .
And wouldn't they also be able to determine the amount of the chemical in question, along with OTHER chemicals present that would allow them to eliminate the use of show sheen or shampoo as the culprit??? I really don't think that science is so flawed that the simple presence of a chemical would set off alarm bells. It should be taken in context.
If they aren't taking it in context, then the USDA's methodology is flawed.
I am very familiar with the GC-Mass Spec as a major forensic tool which identifies substances via their specific molecular compound and structure, which is why it is a 100% fool proof testing method. However, the last I knew, the GC-Mass Spec needed an actual tangible sample to test, a piece of matter, -- not just a "sniff". :huh:
If the USDA is using the GC-Mass Spec, they are taking actual samples of hair, skin, tissue, etc., and sending that out to their lab for testing. This test is not just a cursory sampling of air . . .
And wouldn't they also be able to determine the amount of the chemical in question, along with OTHER chemicals present that would allow them to eliminate the use of show sheen or shampoo as the culprit??? I really don't think that science is so flawed that the simple presence of a chemical would set off alarm bells. It should be taken in context.
If they aren't taking it in context, then the USDA's methodology is flawed.
SaddlebredMom
09-22-2008, 12:58 PM
And wouldn't they also be able to determine the amount of the chemical in question, along with OTHER chemicals present that would allow them to eliminate the use of show sheen or shampoo as the culprit??? I really don't think that science is so flawed that the simple presence of a chemical would set off alarm bells. It should be taken in context.
If they aren't taking it in context, then the USDA's methodology is flawed.
Precisely Tiffani. The GC-Mass Spec can identify every single substance present, including the amount of each, with 100% accuracy. You will get a laundry list of elements in the results.
I don't know the specifics of how much of a substance must be present before the USDA considers it a violation, but considering how common place some of the banned substances are and the number of run-of-the-mill every day horse care/use products they can be found in, it would be ridiculous for them not to set a range of minimums and maximums, and a combination of elements, that must be found before considering it a violation. :blink:
If they aren't taking it in context, then the USDA's methodology is flawed.
Precisely Tiffani. The GC-Mass Spec can identify every single substance present, including the amount of each, with 100% accuracy. You will get a laundry list of elements in the results.
I don't know the specifics of how much of a substance must be present before the USDA considers it a violation, but considering how common place some of the banned substances are and the number of run-of-the-mill every day horse care/use products they can be found in, it would be ridiculous for them not to set a range of minimums and maximums, and a combination of elements, that must be found before considering it a violation. :blink:
Kalin
09-22-2008, 03:11 PM
The testing is done via swab, which is sent off to a lab.
In the USDA response to HIO concerns:
5) How long before a show do trainers need to be sure to not use any cosmetic or other non-injurious salves in order to avoid having the “sniffer” register a positive response?
We have not studied this specific issue and cannot recommend that trainers ensure any particular time between using any cosmetic or other non-injurious salves in order to not have a positive response from the GC/MS test. But the key point is that USDA will focus on, and use its enforcement discretion on, foreign substances that are considered irritants, numbing, and masking agents.
We do point out, however, that the HPA Regulations state: All substances are prohibited on the extremities above the hoof of any Tennessee Walking Horse or racking horse while being shown, exhibited, or offered for sale at any horse show, horse exhibition, or horse sale or auction, except lubricants such as glycerine, petrolatum, and mineral oil, or mixtures thereof...
To me, and maybe someone else can interpret it differently, this looks like they're saying: Yes, you can have these foreign substances on your horse's legs through innocent means, but you will still be liable because the only things that should be found are glycerin, mineral oil and petrolatum.
Glycerin, Mineral Oil, and Petrolatum are the only allowed chemicals not to be considered a foreign substance and are not documented as a positive result.
Please note that these are not the only chemicals that are screened for and some chemicals that are considered positive may not be noted as a foreign substance. Therefore, USDA will focus its prosecutorial discretion on foreign substances that are considered irritants, numbing, and masking agents.
It just so happens that a lot of those "irritants, numbing, and masking agents" are in a great deal of horse products where they have perfectly legitimate uses.
In the USDA response to HIO concerns:
5) How long before a show do trainers need to be sure to not use any cosmetic or other non-injurious salves in order to avoid having the “sniffer” register a positive response?
We have not studied this specific issue and cannot recommend that trainers ensure any particular time between using any cosmetic or other non-injurious salves in order to not have a positive response from the GC/MS test. But the key point is that USDA will focus on, and use its enforcement discretion on, foreign substances that are considered irritants, numbing, and masking agents.
We do point out, however, that the HPA Regulations state: All substances are prohibited on the extremities above the hoof of any Tennessee Walking Horse or racking horse while being shown, exhibited, or offered for sale at any horse show, horse exhibition, or horse sale or auction, except lubricants such as glycerine, petrolatum, and mineral oil, or mixtures thereof...
To me, and maybe someone else can interpret it differently, this looks like they're saying: Yes, you can have these foreign substances on your horse's legs through innocent means, but you will still be liable because the only things that should be found are glycerin, mineral oil and petrolatum.
Glycerin, Mineral Oil, and Petrolatum are the only allowed chemicals not to be considered a foreign substance and are not documented as a positive result.
Please note that these are not the only chemicals that are screened for and some chemicals that are considered positive may not be noted as a foreign substance. Therefore, USDA will focus its prosecutorial discretion on foreign substances that are considered irritants, numbing, and masking agents.
It just so happens that a lot of those "irritants, numbing, and masking agents" are in a great deal of horse products where they have perfectly legitimate uses.
walkinghorseowner
09-22-2008, 07:59 PM
yes they are g mas and what they do is swab the horses pastern in the back in the "pocket" where the sweat collects and that swab is sealed in a vial and sent to ames iowa....when asked about allowable part per million etc.. the answer was no other substance is allowed on a twh except glycerin, mineral oil, petroleum.....
here is an example of a question and answer fro the protocol
"How long before a show do trainers need to be sure to not use any cosmetic or other non-injurious salves in order to avoid having the “sniffer” register a positive response?
We have not studied this specific issue and cannot recommend that trainers ensure any particular time between using any cosmetic or other non-injurious salves in order to not have a positive response from the GC/MS test. But the key point is that USDA will focus on, and use its enforcement discretion on, foreign substances that are considered irritants, numbing, and masking agents.
We do point out, however, that the HPA Regulations state: All substances are prohibited on the extremities above the hoof of any Tennessee Walking Horse or racking horse while being shown, exhibited, or offered for sale at any horse show, horse exhibition, or horse sale or auction, except lubricants such as glycerine, petrolatum, and mineral oil, or mixtures thereof:"
another
'We have screened the following chemicals over the past 3 years:
Camphor
Menthol
Benzocaine
Sulfur
Isopropyl Palmitate
Fuel Oil Components
O-Aminoazutulene
Lidocaine
Isopropyl Myristate
Octyl Methoxycinnamate
Silicone-based Components (i.e. Dimethicone)
Glycerin, Mineral Oil, and Petrolatum are the only allowed chemicals not to be considered a foreign substance and are not documented as a positive result"
the current released info on the shows from the beginning of the year thru july, show NO caustic substances, the most common found is elemental sulfur (found in work grease and topical dressing) and substances found in moisturizers, camphor in 2 and benzocaine
here is an example of a question and answer fro the protocol
"How long before a show do trainers need to be sure to not use any cosmetic or other non-injurious salves in order to avoid having the “sniffer” register a positive response?
We have not studied this specific issue and cannot recommend that trainers ensure any particular time between using any cosmetic or other non-injurious salves in order to not have a positive response from the GC/MS test. But the key point is that USDA will focus on, and use its enforcement discretion on, foreign substances that are considered irritants, numbing, and masking agents.
We do point out, however, that the HPA Regulations state: All substances are prohibited on the extremities above the hoof of any Tennessee Walking Horse or racking horse while being shown, exhibited, or offered for sale at any horse show, horse exhibition, or horse sale or auction, except lubricants such as glycerine, petrolatum, and mineral oil, or mixtures thereof:"
another
'We have screened the following chemicals over the past 3 years:
Camphor
Menthol
Benzocaine
Sulfur
Isopropyl Palmitate
Fuel Oil Components
O-Aminoazutulene
Lidocaine
Isopropyl Myristate
Octyl Methoxycinnamate
Silicone-based Components (i.e. Dimethicone)
Glycerin, Mineral Oil, and Petrolatum are the only allowed chemicals not to be considered a foreign substance and are not documented as a positive result"
the current released info on the shows from the beginning of the year thru july, show NO caustic substances, the most common found is elemental sulfur (found in work grease and topical dressing) and substances found in moisturizers, camphor in 2 and benzocaine
tommygrl
09-23-2008, 12:41 PM
Greg
Preach on brother, anyone with a horse in captivity thinking they are safe from the menace of the do-gooders has their head way too deep in the sand. They won't even see it coming. Pow! By the way, any relation to the Colonel?
The only reason they are not on top of the ASBs and other show breeds yet is that they have gotten way too much money rolling in with their malicious, false accusations about the TWHs. They continually use outdated photos to prove their story. There are a very few horrible trainers left out there, but they are being weeded out quickly, as well they should be.
But they will eventually come after all horse owners. After all, it is cruel to even "OWN" a horse, they all should be free to run and play; you know, without a care in the world. Out in the real world where oats and hay abound for the taking. Where there is no more trouble or sorrow, no master, just peace, food, water and fun, fun, fun. Yeah right. Oh! I almost forgot to mention the lovely sugar-cube trees that are everywhere, just waiting to be plucked. Sorry, enough sarcasm.
The TWH letter went to many other folks than us horse people who can discuss the scare tactics accurately and in detail. The General Public cannot, even the dog & cat owners who are fighting the PETA/HSUS-influenced state & local laws. I have had them call to ask about what PETA/HSUS are talking about; even so, they all suspect what is being said about horses is false or exaggerated.
I have enjoyed the detailed discussion of chemicals, rules, detection methods, and hope to read more. But now:
The Animal Rights Wackos have been wildly successful in getting legislation passed, especially at the local level, (which all other cities & states MUST follow so as not to be thought of as cruel), & stop whatever horror is being waved about.
It's the usual proceedure- create a horror hysteria that can be repaired only by legislated action, and enforcement oftentimes by the uninformed do-gooders.
If we do not support other animal interests (it's divide & conquer) we horse riders/show-ers will be next. I wish I knew of a way to totally diffuse PETA/HSUS so they would go away & leave me alone.
Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom.
Preach on brother, anyone with a horse in captivity thinking they are safe from the menace of the do-gooders has their head way too deep in the sand. They won't even see it coming. Pow! By the way, any relation to the Colonel?
The only reason they are not on top of the ASBs and other show breeds yet is that they have gotten way too much money rolling in with their malicious, false accusations about the TWHs. They continually use outdated photos to prove their story. There are a very few horrible trainers left out there, but they are being weeded out quickly, as well they should be.
But they will eventually come after all horse owners. After all, it is cruel to even "OWN" a horse, they all should be free to run and play; you know, without a care in the world. Out in the real world where oats and hay abound for the taking. Where there is no more trouble or sorrow, no master, just peace, food, water and fun, fun, fun. Yeah right. Oh! I almost forgot to mention the lovely sugar-cube trees that are everywhere, just waiting to be plucked. Sorry, enough sarcasm.
The TWH letter went to many other folks than us horse people who can discuss the scare tactics accurately and in detail. The General Public cannot, even the dog & cat owners who are fighting the PETA/HSUS-influenced state & local laws. I have had them call to ask about what PETA/HSUS are talking about; even so, they all suspect what is being said about horses is false or exaggerated.
I have enjoyed the detailed discussion of chemicals, rules, detection methods, and hope to read more. But now:
The Animal Rights Wackos have been wildly successful in getting legislation passed, especially at the local level, (which all other cities & states MUST follow so as not to be thought of as cruel), & stop whatever horror is being waved about.
It's the usual proceedure- create a horror hysteria that can be repaired only by legislated action, and enforcement oftentimes by the uninformed do-gooders.
If we do not support other animal interests (it's divide & conquer) we horse riders/show-ers will be next. I wish I knew of a way to totally diffuse PETA/HSUS so they would go away & leave me alone.
Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom.
SaddlebredMom
09-23-2008, 12:43 PM
It looks like it's officially a zero tolerance for any substance "except lubricants such as glycerine, petrolatum, and mineral oil, or mixtures thereof" and while they may be actively participating in selective enforcement over which substances they are actually violating for, they can and will prosecute for other substances when they want to.
Humm, seems like a dose of whim and caprice. :001_rolleyes:
Humm, seems like a dose of whim and caprice. :001_rolleyes:
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