Got sored walking horses?

[ASB Stars]

Now they have a list where anyone suspended for this hienous act has their name posted...

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=11162

[Ride2Live]

Probably a stupid question here ... I know this is something that has been commonly been done with TWH's but what exactly do this process entail?

I apologize for my ignorance. I know very little about TWH's even though I know people who have them.

[LindaC]

http://www.fosh.info/links.html

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/publications/animal_welfare/content/printable_version/fs_awhpa.pdf

[Ride2Live]

Thanks for the links! That is HORRIBLE! I can't understand why anybody would do something like that to an animal they supposedly "love". It would be great if we could sore the legs of all the bastards that do this to their horses, then maybe they wouldn't think it was such a great idea:D

[Anke]

Thanks for the links! That is HORRIBLE! I can't understand why anybody would do something like that to an animal they supposedly "love". It would be great if we could sore the legs of all the bastards that do this to their horses, then maybe they wouldn't think it was such a great idea:D


I could think of a few other places than the legs to sore..........:mad:

[VLayne]

The only problem I have with the whole inspection thing is it is subject to the inspector's opinion, and oftentimes the inspector is not a horse person. Many times the inspectors dq a horse without following the rules (bilateral scarring, reactive on BOTH front feet, etc).

I think that heat sensors and chemical sniffers should be the ONLY thing used to dq a horse. That is fairly irrefutable evidence. Just going by one person's opinion leaves MUCH room for error and interpretation.

Making people's names public and potentially destroying their business, with a flawed system in place, is not the best way to go about this. It might feel good to do (take THAT, sorers!) but it could unjustifiably punish the innocent as well. It's one thing for a person to be wrongly dq'd. It's quite another to subject their livlihood to potential ruination.

[attafox]

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this by some of our WH lurkers, but having hung out at a few shows with the WH judges in center ring, having your name on a published list is actually a point of pride with some of 'em ...

I've been at shows in AZ where it is quite comfortable out (60's/70's) and a few of the Big Lick barns (a huge one from CA ...) will have the industrial fans going. Turned off, there's an odd smell in that aisle (and yes, this is personal experience before y'all start flamin' and yes, this happened within the last year).

[^-_-^]

I've tended to notice that people outside the respective breeds and disciplines often associate WHs and ASBs. Shouldn't we be trying to distance ourselves from the WH people rather than be discussing them as if they are relevant to our gaited horses?

[Ride2Live]

I've tended to notice that people outside the respective breeds and disciplines often associate WHs and ASBs. Shouldn't we be trying to distance ourselves from the WH people rather than be discussing them as if they are relevant to our gaited horses?

While you bring up a very good point (and I understand what you're saying) there is such a widely held misconception that ALL gaited breeds do this, that we need to something. To outsiders looking in, they're all just a bunch of high headed animals with "unnatural" (though we know otherwise) motion. It may just be in this instance, that the best way to clear our name is by cleaning up the equine community as a whole and removing those less than model citizens.

[Silly Filly]

Once I read this: "FOSH is providing this information from a variety of sources, including the compiled HIO listing managed by the National Horse Show Commission, and various public web sites. FOSH is not responsible for the accuracy of this information."
I stopped reading. IMO, if they are holding the people on the list "responsible" for their actions, FOSH should be "responsible" for the accuracy of the info. I especially didn't like the part about getting the info from "various public web sites". Anyone can have a public website.

[SteppinEasy]

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this by some of our WH lurkers, but having hung out at a few shows with the WH judges in center ring, having your name on a published list is actually a point of pride with some of 'em ...

I've been at shows in AZ where it is quite comfortable out (60's/70's) and a few of the Big Lick barns (a huge one from CA ...) will have the industrial fans going. Turned off, there's an odd smell in that aisle (and yes, this is personal experience before y'all start flamin' and yes, this happened within the last year).


Attafox, you're right about it actually being a "good" thing for many. It often helps the offender's business, believe it or not. Case in point: one individual on the list is an older "trainer" currently in the middle of a three year suspension. This three year suspension comes on the heels of a 10 year suspension finished in the late 1990s and two one year suspensions between that one and the one he's currently serving. His barn has a long waiting list. This guy, a former "Trainer of the Year" and WGC trainer, is referred to as "The Master Showman" and people celebrate those rare times he's able to appear in the ring. Doesn't seem to matter what he's done to get there.:confused:

That barn in CA is notorious, BTW. Headed by yet another "Trainer of the Year."

The inspection process is partially subjective, but frankly, that subjectivity falls on the side of sore horses getting through far more often than that of innocent people getting wrongly accused.:mad:

[Ride2Live]

That completely disgusts and angers me! If I knew a trainer had a reputation for animal cruelty, I would move my horse into my own living room before I would take her to their barn!

I may be one of the most competitive people you'll ever encounter, but the lengths some of these people go to in order to win is repulsive. If you aren't in the horse world first and foremost for the love of the horse (above any potential profit, status recognition or trophy) then in my opinion, you shouldn't be a part of it. I don't think its a stretch to say that these people are NOT in it for the love of the horse.

[D_BaldStockings]

That completely disgusts and angers me! If I knew a trainer had a reputation for animal cruelty, I would move my horse into my own living room before I would take her to their barn!

Animal cruelty is a criminal offense and can be (should be) prosecuted in the courts, with fines and jail time and a nice criminal record to go with it. Believing that a sanction by a horse show organization is comparable punishment is unfortunately naive.

Now, when, if ever, the show associations start standing behind their inspections and turning people who fail inspection over to the police and the 'real' judicial system, maybe people will start taking things seriously -I hope.

Mary

[Ride2Live]

I suppose I should have clarified. However, even if it isn't prosecuted, it is still animal cruelty in my eyes.

I agree with you though, it would be nice if the courts cracked down on these people.

[D_BaldStockings]

I wasn't being negative about whether soring is cruel; it is.

And the associations continue to handle it as an in-house affair, rather than pressing criminal charges.

It is sad but unsurprising to think that this self policing is so ineffective: historically leaving the fox in charge of the chicken house never has worked in any sector of society.

Mary

[roadpony]

I'm not defending TWH trainers, but all I'm going to say is... the next time a member of this forum expresses righteous indignation about another breed publicly bashing Saddlebreds, their people, and training practices...

[D_BaldStockings]

Roadpony,
Did I do wrong? While the thread started about TWH big-lick showing and soring (which is history, not guessing) I wasn't aware of BREED bashing, just trainers-who-sore bashing. There are plenty of TWH in my area, mostly in the plantation classes and they aren't in favor of soring or trainers who sore either.

I thought we separated the trainers' acts from the horses themselves? Soring is not an acceptable 'training practice' in any book.

...you always have the right to lock the thread if it is being taken wrong?

I don't believe in crucifying the accused in the media, I believe that is also illegal...but in the courts, if warranted.

Mary

[Kalin]

Something that may be of interest to some:
The former executive director of Friends of Sound Horses is now the equine protection director at the Humane Society of the United States.

[katie]

My husband's family currently owns a Celebration ribbon-winning BL Walking Horse. They've had TWHs since before my mother-in-law was born. Their current Walking Horse is absolutely, positively amazing - as is their trainer. I've never met a man that was so concerned about the care and welfare of the animals in his barn. He has everything in his barn from high-dollar BLs to barefoot TWHs that are ready to be taken home as some kid's pet. He does not sore, has a barn full of horses, and sits on their board. Being in the Walking Horse game does NOT mean that you're a cruel, horrible person. Just like any other breed, there are bad apples in every bunch.

Some people will do anything that it takes to win (whether it be in horses, sports, in the workplace, whatever). It's sad to know that some people still find cruelty the only way to go.

[SteppinEasy]

My husband's family currently owns a Celebration ribbon-winning BL Walking Horse. They've had TWHs since before my mother-in-law was born. Their current Walking Horse is absolutely, positively amazing - as is their trainer. I've never met a man that was so concerned about the care and welfare of the animals in his barn. He has everything in his barn from high-dollar BLs to barefoot TWHs that are ready to be taken home as some kid's pet. He does not sore, has a barn full of horses, and sits on their board. Being in the Walking Horse game does NOT mean that you're a cruel, horrible person. Just like any other breed, there are bad apples in every bunch.


Oh, I agree completely. I know plenty of sound trainers, especially in the flat shod divisions. However, I've only personally encountered ONE padded barn where no chemicals whatsoever are used (and I've been in the vast majority of the high profile KY and TN barns). That barn, comprised of a husband and wife training team, has had much success, winning multiple Celebration blues over the years, but they will tell whoever is willing to listen what an uphill battle it is trying to compete against sored horses. They have the talent and know-how to do it (train without chemicals, that is); many TWH "trainers" simply don't know any other way and aren't all that interested in learning.

Many of the high profile "trainers" loudly say they don't "sore," but what most of them mean is that they don't use straight mustard oil. Instead, they use GoJo, kerosene and a bunch of other concoctions that would make a chemist proud.

I can't imagine any other breed enduring what the TWH has and STILL be willing to go into the ring and try their hearts outs. I own a TWH who won a WC while showing with two broken vertebra:( . Before I owned him, of course, but the guy who rode him that way KNEW ABOUT HIS BACK, as did his owner. (I know this straight from the proverbial horse's mouth, btw.).

I love the TWH and would never bash the breed. The abusers masquerading as "trainers"? Every chance I get, as loudly as I can. What other voice do the horses have than ours?

[Ride2Live]

I can't imagine any other breed enduring what the TWH has and STILL be willing to go into the ring and try their hearts outs. I own a TWH who won a WC while showing with two broken vertebra:( . Before I owned him, of course, but the guy who rode him that way KNEW ABOUT HIS BACK, as did his owner. (I know this straight from the proverbial horse's mouth, btw.).

I love the TWH and would never bash the breed. The abusers masquerading as "trainers"? Every chance I get, as loudly as I can. What other voice do the horses have than ours?

Wow! That poor horse! I'm so happy that he has a good home now. And I agree with you, those people aren't real trainers. Training involves conditioning a horses a body (using the physical characteristics it was given) so that it can perform to its optimum level. Sure some horses probably can't cut the mustard, so-to-speak, but resorting to such an extreme to achieve a result goes FAR beyond cheating in my book and right under the category of abuse.

[walkinghorseowner]

did you know that riding a horse in any chain that has drop links on a show grounds is against the federal law...you are breaking the HPA..
did you know shackles on a showground are illegal...they are not approved equipment and you are breaking the law...
did you know wearing more than one set of chains at a show is against the law...
did you know that all bands on horses must be 1/2 inch below the coronary bands (have you measured yours..)...if they are not and you show your horse your are breaking the law...
and any rub caused by a boot, quarter boot strap etc while showing, is indicative of soring and you can be prosectued under the HPA...
did you know that yearlings may not wear shoes weighing more than 16 oz and cannot wear a pad or wedge of more than 1 inch.... and cannot have lead placed in the bottom
The HPA applies to all breeds...the words trottings are in it....
did you know that EVERY walking is inspected prior to showing or selling(how many of yours were)..and that 98+% of them passed pre show inspection (this includes industry inspector and many times USDA inspectors).... and that turning a horse down preshow can include infractions such as ANY variance in shoeing regulations (there is no tolerance ..1/8 inch or less gets you turned down)
did you know that the FEI is addressing the soring issue in jumpers...and they HOPE that the national level and smaller shows will follow suit....
and remember HSUS will never be satisfied..
don't throw rocks at the TWH we are addressing our problems....remember the old adage.... they who live in glass houses should not throw stones...
and BTW I happen to like saddlebreds, but just as many can make a case for cruelty in the TWH business... they can make a case for the same in saddlebreds....
and yes many of your comments here are bashing the breed....

[SteppinEasy]

Oh, and I forgot to mention that there's a class you get to go to when you first buy a show TWH: Obfuscation 101;) . It teaches all the classic logical fallacies you need to know, with Straw Man (where you "disprove" an issue that really has nothing to do with the issue at hand) being the overwhelming favorite.:rolleyes:

Once you've passed your course with flying colors, there's an added bonus--you're fully qualified to be a politician!:D

[SmartAlex]

did you know that riding a horse in any chain that has drop links on a show grounds is against the federal law...you are breaking the HPA..
did you know shackles on a showground are illegal...they are not approved equipment and you are breaking the law...
did you know wearing more than one set of chains at a show is against the law...
did you know that all bands on horses must be 1/2 inch below the coronary bands (have you measured yours..)...if they are not and you show your horse your are breaking the law...
and any rub caused by a boot, quarter boot strap etc while showing, is indicative of soring and you can be prosectued under the HPA...
did you know that yearlings may not wear shoes weighing more than 16 oz and cannot wear a pad or wedge of more than 1 inch.... and cannot have lead placed in the bottom
The HPA applies to all breeds...the words trottings are in it....


Yes. We know.

[attafox]

Walkinghorseowner - if there are cases of comments that bash the TWH breed, then it is your responsibility to report those posts (with your explanation) to the mods. We will take care of it.

Didn't realize "trottings" was a word, though ...:cool: That's a new one for me.

[D_BaldStockings]

I, for one, do appreciate knowing the do nots listed by Walkinghorseowner, it is good to have a clear picture of what is being talked about regarding inspection for soring.

I think we SB people tend to pay closer attention to the status of other set-tail, Saddleseat and especially gaited breeds than we do to the problems of (for instance) race horses or H/J and Dressage infractions because there is often an overflow of criticism and rulings to our breed. This is not to say that we should ignore soring, cruelty or abuse in other breeds.

The original post was in reference to a list on-line of so-called wrong-doers. Perhaps we should express whether we think that is a good thing? And if so, who will post the link to a list of those with infractions, etc. in the SB world -without explanation or detail?

Things do look different when you change your perspective. Just a thought.

Typos are what I'm good at, too!

Mary

[D_BaldStockings]

A bit off topic, but here is a link to a post about weighted and pinch boots on Jumpers -hoping to train/enhance natural ability is common to all horse trainers.

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=130813

Mary

[canter]

I was not aware of a 'Saddlebred List'. The USEF does post on their website a list of suspended mangement/farms/individuals/horses who are not allowed to compete or even spectate at a USEF event. It is public knowledge and you do not have to be a member to view it. Infractions are not listed. Just the date of suspension and date (if any) of reinstatement.

[D_BaldStockings]

I don't know of any Saddlebred list either. The HPA soring list is (supposedly) not breed specific. And I don't think it is USEF, but USDA?

"Friends of Sound Horses (FOSH) has developed a Web site for reporting all current Horse Protection Act suspensions.
Under the USDA Horse Protection Operating Plan for 2007-2009, signed in mid-2007 by most of the horse industry organizations (HIOs) with USDA-certified inspection programs, all signatories agreed to provide their most recent list, or a combined HIO list, of all new and current HPA suspensions to the general public ...
FOSH is providing this information from a variety of sources, including the compiled HIO listing managed by the National Horse Show Commission, and various public web sites. FOSH is not responsible for the accuracy of this information. Should you find any incorrect data, please contact the HIO listed for that suspension, and ask it to officially notify FOSH of the necessary correction. All changes and corrections must be approved by the reporting HIO...."
So it is simple to get put on the list and difficult to get removed.

I have no idea whether there are any SB trainers on the list.

Does anyone care to publish a list of 'the best' Walkinghorse trainers out there- those who have never sored a horse, train and condition correctly and have high standards of horsemanship and sportsmanship? Sometimes it works to advantage to ask people to aspire to an 'A' rather than publishing only those who receive 'F' s. That makes the entire school look bad.

Mary

[D_BaldStockings]

From the Fosh site:
"Yes, there have been over 1,000 suspensions issued for violations to the Horse Protection Act in the last 12 months. "
...their list is of less than 75. Less than 8% of their own total?

Mary

[SteppinEasy]

From the Fosh site:
"Yes, there have been over 1,000 suspensions issued for violations to the Horse Protection Act in the last 12 months. "
...their list is of less than 75. Less than 8% of their own total?

Mary

Mary, the published list only includes two of the HIOs that put on horse shows. Each HIO keeps its own list. While they are each required to compile and record those lists, it's been traditional only to release those violations which have been issued by the "government," i.e. the federal VMOs, rather than those issued by the HIO's own DQPs. For example, the KYWHA, which has had a large percentage of the violators in the past, only gives numbers, not names (as you can see addressed on the FOSH website). The FOSH numbers will be taken from a compilation of ALL the HIOs' numbers, even though the list of names will only include those from one or two HIOs.

To address your concerns about publishing a "bad apples" list, let me reassure you that each violator and each case has the opportunity to protest their "ticket," even take it to a jury trail. You're only reading those names that have gone through the appeals process (if the accused violator choses to appeal), not a gossip list.

And I'd love to "out":p the sound trainers I know. Kim and Leigh Bennett of Bennett Stables in Alvaton, KY (near Bowling Green) train both padded and flat shod, have won multiple Celebration titles, and use no chemicals whatsoever. Their barn actually smells like a barn! For ASB exhibitors, this barn is the one Morgan Wolin rode with to win her Walking Seat Equitation World Championship. It's also the barn where Georgia Blevins and her granddaughter currently keep their TWHs. Leigh spent a lot of time at Delovely growing up and she's brought that experience into her TWH training. Wonderful, talented people.

[D_BaldStockings]

Thanks, SteppinEasy,
I was frankly a bit baffled by the DQP status and FOSH Sanctioned events area - seemed to not really refer to the Big Lick or padded Walkers at all; only flat shod/unshod horses, and DQPs weren't allowed to inpect at other non-sactioned venues...

And French Chalk is a violation in their sanctioned event rules?
No added shoe weight of any kind (not even corrective for a horse who interferes).
4 1/2 inch toe max?
No pads or weighted boots...
Weanlings and yearlings barefoot?
Seemed a bit extreme in limitation to me, but then I am on the outside looking in and I suppose the pendulum swings pretty far when cruelty is/has been an issue.

Thank you for the positives list, I knew a great breed like the TWH would also have its' share of wonderful people involved, too.
Mary

[SteppinEasy]

Thanks, SteppinEasy,
I was frankly a bit baffled by the DQP status and FOSH Sanctioned events area - seemed to not really refer to the Big Lick or padded Walkers at all; only flat shod/unshod horses, and DQPs weren't allowed to inpect at other non-sactioned venues...

And French Chalk is a violation in their sanctioned event rules?
No added shoe weight of any kind (not even corrective for a horse who interferes).
4 1/2 inch toe max?
No pads or weighted boots...
Weanlings and yearlings barefoot?
Seemed a bit extreme in limitation to me, but then I am on the outside looking in and I suppose the pendulum swings pretty far when cruelty is/has been an issue.

Thank you for the positives list, I knew a great breed like the TWH would also have its' share of wonderful people involved, too.
Mary

About FOSH--their name is "Friends of the Sound Horse" where "sound" is the industry term that means "not sore." FOSH is a flat-shod only HIO and has tried very hard to keep any kind of chemicals, pressure shoeing, or other abusive/cheating issues out. French Chalk is common, usually mixed with dirt, in disguising scars on sored horses, which is why it's out. In the past there have been NO limitations on shoe weight, even in the flat-shod division (the horse I spoke about earlier was actually in the heavy-shod plantation division, where the abuse is arguably worse than in the padded divisions). And so on...

FOSH is the most "radical" of the sound horse organizations in its limitations, but you can see the reasons behind what they do. And you really wouldn't expect to see ANY violators from a FOSH show, even though they have the strictest policies.

I know it's rather complicated; the whole business always is.

[walkinghorseowner]

The NHSC the largest HIO inspecting all divisions of the TWH have inspected around 35,000 horses this year..(I will try to find the exact figures).the Celebration alone had 4,197 entries..the last figure I saw for the KY HIO was about 16,000 (as of august)..they also have all divisions at their shows.....FOSH only deals with the flatshod horses who use their rulebook....NWHA is another flatshod only organization..
on the average the NHSC one night horse show in middle TN has around 200 entries with some having close to 300....
to understand some suspensions ..a scar rule suspension is usually only 2 weeks ..excessive hair loss can be the cause for this..or subjectivity..a horse can get turned down at one show and go show the next night and pass inspection....but he will get a 2 weeks supension notice for that first violation ..and to further understand this an HIO scar rule suspension is 2 weeks..but if a government VMO writes that suspension and pursues it as a federal case.. it is 8 months..... and again that same horse can pass the next night, even in front of the same or another VMO (government ) inspector...

[ASB Stars]

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=12242

[TwhTasha]

I really hate how the media and these large publication magazine label the suspension list as the names of people who sore. How wrong they are!

What you all have to understand is just because someone is on the list doesn’t mean they are an animal abuser. Because of the USDA’s inconstant inspection process (which someone here quoted it right saying it is only an inspector’s opinion), a lot of horses are wrote up because of scar rule violations, not sore feet. And most of the scare rule violation tickets wrote by the USDA are, in my opinion, completely pulled out of thin air because they are given to a horse AFTER he shows and comes back out of the show arena. They are inspected BEFORE and AFTER they are shown. How can a horse be clean of scars when they go in and have one when they come out? They can’t.

A few weeks ago, I witnessed three new USDA inspectors (not DQPs, the regular inspectors), but the USDA federal inspectors. You know, the guys that show up and runs everyone off? Well, they were women and this was their first show as ‘inspectors’. Do you know they were asking the DQP and the vet there how to pick up a horses foot?? And these are people that is sent to inspect show horses?? Something they don’t know anything about?? Would your trainer lead your horse up to an inspector who doesnt know how to pick up a horses foot, yet, has the authority to write you a ticket and place you and your trainer on that suspension list if your horse happens to flinch during the inspection?

Fosh is one of the biggest anti-padded performance groups in the industry. It would be just like someone within your industry asking you all to stop showing saddlebreds in the world championship division. They are hell bent on all walking horses being barefoot or keg shod.

And just for the record - I grew up with Walking horses. I own Walking horses. I make a living doing their horse shows. I also love Saddlebreds and it really bothers me how the two people in the breeds keep pointing at each other. Horse people should be sticking together.

I have been around some major, big name horses and I have yet to see any of them ‘abused’ like they say we do in the media.

[TwhTasha]

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=12242

That horse show was sanctioned with the Kentucky Walking Horse Association. They are the only group who has refused to sign the USDA's Inspection plan so the USDA has been somewhat harrassing them for the last two years, hitting KYWHA sanctioned shows hard.

[silvia]

I've lost count on the number of times I'd had to clarify to non-gaited people here that Saddlebreds are not sored or wear TWH packages.

And we don't even have big lick TWHs in Australia.

[SmartAlex]

While I empathise with the Walking Horse breed as a whole for having to deal with the USDA and PETA and being constantly scrutinized, often unfairly, all I can say is that they made their own bed.

[scrtwh]

Thankfully, there are soo many options out there for TWH folks. A VERY small percentage of TWH's are padded or even show in the rail classes as light shod, and certainly not all of those are "sored". Versatility is the fastest growing segment of our breed. We are no longer the breed that is only known for going in circles with "messed up" feet and "fixed" legs. And those who still like to do the rail classes, lots of options out there for them in non-soring venues.

It is sad that we are all lumped into the same class. So much ignorance when it comes to this breed. The sins of the few are rained upon all. :sad:

And in stead of it becoming a witch hunt or a slam fest, DO something about it, instead of bashing a bunch of people who don't deserve it.

[ASB Stars]

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=12466

[Greg Doggett]

I was told once by a woman who sold mustard oil, castor oil, pain killer and other chemical agents to Walking Horse trainers that she sold the same stuff to some saddlebred trainers. She said that saddlebred trainers would sore the back feet of the horse. She did say that it had been a long time since she had sold some to a saddlebred trainer. So, here's the big question. How do you KNOW for sure that some saddlebreds are not sored if there are no inspections at your shows?

[SmartAlex]

What would soring the hind feet accomplish? Simply, a lame horse can't trot square. It doesn't matter which leg he's lame in.

[Greg Doggett]

Maybe it was to help get the horse to rack. I don't know.

[SaddlebredMom]

So, here's the big question. How do you KNOW for sure that some saddlebreds are not sored if there are no inspections at your shows?

That "big question" can also be turned around: How do you KNOW for sure that some walking horses are not sored if there isn't any drug testing at your shows?

I believe the answer is, except for the certainty of death and taxes, you can never know anything for sure . . . ;)

[SmartAlex]

OK, so I've always assumed I know the answer to this, but I've never actually asked anyone for fear of starting a riot...
The purpose of soring a walking horse is to get them to squat back on their rear legs and nod their heads, right?... or is there more to it than that?

[D_BaldStockings]

The purpose of soring a walking horse is to get them to squat back on their rear legs and nod their heads, right?... or is there more to it than that?

From what I have read (and i can't locate the link...) before the 1940's TWH moved much lower and more horizontal in their front action. At some point in the late 40's there was a prominent horse who had a very high folded front action and was much admired (result of ability and training).

During the 50's the trend was for fold plus climb (extension of the lifted leg to the front) and horses with the ability to be trained for this were of course, the big winners.

Somewhere along the way, someone discovered quick "ways" to achieve a look similar to the effect in horses who didn't learn it. These horses won big, too. Things went to h*** in a handbasket from there.

It has nothing to do with head nod, which is natural and varies by horse. Soring is about getting the front feet off the ground as fast and high and long as possible.

You CAN TRAIN for the high moving look with a talented horse, farrier and trainer and it is an amazing show; soring is faster and 'lazier' = human nature to the fore, sadly.

[roadpony]

Maybe it was to help get the horse to rack. I don't know.Even if it were to help the rack (and I don't know if that's true), a Saddlebred STILL has be be able to trot square. With the exception of ASB style and speed racking classes (and there are precious few of these at ASB shows), all ASBs are required to trot in the show ring.

[SmartAlex]

From what I have read (and i can't locate the link...) before the 1940's TWH moved much lower and more horizontal in their front action. At some point in the late 40's there was a prominent horse who had a very high folded front action and was much admired (result of ability and training).

I have a scanned copy of the Blue Ribbon Winners at the Kentucky State Fair up to the late 40s, and they did move much lower, maybe just level. In fact, with their naturally long hind legs, most of them were almost traveling down hill. Actually, I think they looked lovely back then. While I have seen a few big lick horses that I really did like, I still think it is a shame the breed went to that extreme, soring or not.

[SaddlebredMom]

Soring is about getting the front feet off the ground as fast and high and long as possible.

I've been told the same thing by TWH people/trainers.

[D_BaldStockings]

I was told once by a woman who sold mustard oil, castor oil, pain killer and other chemical agents to Walking Horse trainers that she sold the same stuff to some saddlebred trainers. She said that saddlebred trainers would sore the back feet of the horse. She did say that it had been a long time since she had sold some to a saddlebred trainer. So, here's the big question. How do you KNOW for sure that some saddlebreds are not sored if there are no inspections at your shows?

Just from observation, I would say a horse sored behind would likely have a 'hitch in his git along' so to speak, which would be very noticeable at a trot (wouldn't leave the hoof grounded long enough) so the diagonal pairs wouldn't sync up correctly. If people were soring behind, it would be to increase hock action, I suppose.

But in showing, it wouldn't work for the above reason...maybe some 'trainers' tried and gave it up as a bad idea. Some people will try anything once !!

[Greg Doggett]

It's been my experience that once a horse learns how to rack he's got it. So if a person used something to started get the horse started they could probably quit after he learned to rack. of course if it really worked someone would have mentioned it by now. So the woman may have been just shooting me some bull.

[D_BaldStockings]

Most recommendations on teaching to rack mention lightening up the front end and downhill inclines -encouraging the front to get ahead of the hind end to break up the trot. I don't see how soring behind would accomplish that?

Not saying that some people wouldn't try soring in any breed/discipline, certainly it happened in the show jumping world in the 60's and 70's (and was a disqualification, of course).

[mlinky]

So the woman may have been just shooting me some bull.

Unfortunately, some of the TWH people like to bash other breed's training methods in order to justify soring...

[VLayne]

It's very possible (in fact, likely :crying:) that some ASB trainers have tried some form of soring, knowing that it works on TWHs. I wouldn't put it past an unscrupulous person to look for the easy way to blue ribbons. :sneaky2: But, as we know with trotting horses, soring isn't the answer. It makes them off, and an off horse cannot win in the ring. So I would bet any sales to ASB trainers were one time only, as they found out it doesn't do anything to help them win.

[saddlebreds_and_buses]

Thanks for the links! That is HORRIBLE! I can't understand why anybody would do something like that to an animal they supposedly "love". It would be great if we could sore the legs of all the bastards that do this to their horses, then maybe they wouldn't think it was such a great idea:D

haha lol :rockon:

[Mr. Midnight's Mom]

Please visit our petitionsite...we are actively working on getting this practice which has been against the law for almost 40 years STOPPED.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/petition/533003783

We are a new small group that facilitates equine rescues as well as advocates for positive change - our number one advocacy is to end the abusive practice of soring.

We can be found on the web at www.onehorseatatimeinc.org and our forum is at www.onehorseatatime.org

[AsbAOTGirlie]

did you know that riding a horse in any chain that has drop links on a show grounds is against the federal law...you are breaking the HPA..
did you know shackles on a showground are illegal...they are not approved equipment and you are breaking the law...
did you know wearing more than one set of chains at a show is against the law...
did you know that all bands on horses must be 1/2 inch below the coronary bands (have you measured yours..)...if they are not and you show your horse your are breaking the law...
and any rub caused by a boot, quarter boot strap etc while showing, is indicative of soring and you can be prosectued under the HPA...
did you know that yearlings may not wear shoes weighing more than 16 oz and cannot wear a pad or wedge of more than 1 inch.... and cannot have lead placed in the bottom
The HPA applies to all breeds...the words trottings are in it....
did you know that EVERY walking is inspected prior to showing or selling(how many of yours were)..and that 98+% of them passed pre show inspection (this includes industry inspector and many times USDA inspectors).... and that turning a horse down preshow can include infractions such as ANY variance in shoeing regulations (there is no tolerance ..1/8 inch or less gets you turned down)
did you know that the FEI is addressing the soring issue in jumpers...and they HOPE that the national level and smaller shows will follow suit....
and remember HSUS will never be satisfied..
don't throw rocks at the TWH we are addressing our problems....remember the old adage.... they who live in glass houses should not throw stones...
and BTW I happen to like saddlebreds, but just as many can make a case for cruelty in the TWH business... they can make a case for the same in saddlebreds....
and yes many of your comments here are bashing the breed....





Thank you walkinghorse owner. I appreciate someone else seeing the same point of view as I do.

[attafox]

ASBAOTgirlie - bashing the breed? Really? Please call those posts and words out to the attention of us moderators. In the meantime, you'll need to calm down on the accusatory language, and check your facts/spelling (there is no such word as "trottings"). Also, what is the purpose in reviving a topic that hasn't been commented on in two months?

[walkinghorseowner]

Attafox...evidently the post was a quote from myself(walkinghorseowner)...she just brought it back up and didn't use quotations.....it was made way earlier and I believe you commented on it back then(if you didn't I apologize, I didn't go back thru and read all the "stuff" on this thread)....... beat me 100 lashes with a wet noodle for the typing error on the word "trotting" (good heavens now it has appeared twice).... I am not perfect... evidently others are....
but I do agree with you that there was absolutely no point in calling this topic back to the forefront..... evidently winter boredom has set in early.... probably time to start baking Xmas cookies.....

[rhettdgn]

It is interesting that this topic was brought back up as I was just reading an article about an issue that involved soring and the decision to uphold the charges against the person was what brought the article to the forefront-I haven't had the time here to go back and give the reference of the exact article I was reading. Every persons opinion about the issue should be included as you, me, and whoever else that has commented prior has the right to offer up what they feel about it. I think coming to the conclusion that there is "breed bashing" isn't quite accurate- There isn't anyone here bashing the breed -just standing up for this wonderful breed and actually defending the horses and bashing those that are involved(humans) with the breed that have exploited the horses and have made them work and show in pain and exploited the fact that they work "bigger" when they are sore. The problem that I have with this whole soring issue is that it trickles over to "other gaited breeds" or "other high-stepping breeds " and it isn't fair. It has an impart against those breeds that are being catagorized by the outside world and included in these acts of cruelty and torture. A horse that trots as a primary gait cannot do so properly if it is sore or has been sored!!! Things are getting better and everything takes time to fix-I just hope that new ideas on how to sore do not develop in order to try to "hide" the fact that they are doing it.

[mlinky]

I guess I stirred up trouble in a bad area. I didnt check the date on the thread I just came across it and replied. Oh well.. but inresponse to that- these trainers are developing new ideas every second of everyday on how to "hide" the fact of what they are doing. If you havent been there or havent seen anything about these shows and the DQP and USDA and all that, you dont realize what its like. These trainers rely on their new ideas to make it into the show ring, no matter what that idea may be. They are always 2 steps ahead of everybody else.

I doubt very seriously that saddlebred trainers are trying to come up with new ways to sore trotting horses. That is not a logical response to the quote that you referenced...horses that are sored DON'T TROT SQUARE. End of story.

[rhettdgn]

OOOO You're not stirring up trouble-the people that practice these techniques are to ones that stirred up the trouble- The fact that they are two steps ahead of the inspectors is a problem-that means that they are going to further stiffen the regulations and the changes will end up across the board and get diving into the breeds that don't practice soring and further impact all the gaited breeds and high stepping breeds-Like we need bad press from the inspectors that reflect on the ASB industry. The image that outsiders have parallel the practices and cruelty issues that are rampant in the TWH industry-these are wonderful breeds and they are getting slammed because some TWH trainers and owners have convinced themselves that they are "fixing" the horse instead of being cruel. This by an outsider gets rolled up into one big assumption that the saddlebreds are being treated the same way. That is why it is so important to step out and say that it is impossible for these horses to show without them being sound and cared for. We need the HH and all the other agencies to figure out that they are not the same and actually very far apart as to the gait they do and the practices that surround the training and preparations toward the show ring. I went back to the site that has video available of all the past big lick WC and I am watching these gorgeous horses working so hard and I'm thinking that everyone that Im watching year after year is out there working sore. It is just disgusting. When you look at one or another and check who is training/riding and compare it to the list of suspensions it does correlate. Almost all the horses -trainers combo that I looked up the trainer had been suspended for soring a horse. So...I have concluded that there isn't one big lick horse that hasn't been sored winning a WC title. There might be one, just haven't gotten the insiders info on that. I have to go where the records send you.

[attafox]

rhettdgn;

For some interesting info, suggest you read this thread regarding soring and how much the gov't has been informed about ASBs and soring:

http://www.trot.org/forum/showthread.php?t=284

In short, the original HPA was directed solely at the TWH. ASB trainers presented in front of Congress and proved that trotting breeds could not be sored. At some point, the HPA was expanded to include other actions other than soring, so it became more general than just soring. However, the USDA has been to L'ville and sees no reason to pursue the Saddlebred breed.

Personal experience - have been to a number of shows and conversed with a number of DQPs and to a person they have stated that there's no reason to pursue ASBs for the very reason cited above. Horses can't trot square if they are sored. I'm not minimizing nor trivializing what has happened or is happening in the TWH world, but it really has been discussed (see other thread).

[SaddlebredMom]

I doubt very seriously that saddlebred trainers are trying to come up with new ways to sore trotting horses. That is not a logical response to the quote that you referenced...horses that are sored DON'T TROT SQUARE. End of story.

She's not talking about ASBs. She's talking about TWH . . .

Things are getting better and everything takes time to fix-I just hope that new ideas on how to sore do not develop in order to try to "hide" the fact that they are doing it.

these trainers are developing new ideas every second of everyday on how to "hide" the fact of what they are doing. If you havent been there or havent seen anything about these shows and the DQP and USDA and all that, you dont realize what its like. These trainers rely on their new ideas to make it into the show ring, no matter what that idea may be. They are always 2 steps ahead of everybody else.

[mlinky]

^^^^ Ah, I see. The second part of the quote, not the first part.

[rhettdgn]

As far as the wording of the HPA it says that there are 11 other registry breeds that are listed. Aslo they have changed the wording to include "other gaited breeds" and "other high stepping breeds"

I know what the HPA says and also that the USDA has determined that a horse that has to trot as a primary gait cannot perform if it has been sored. I also don't believe that the ASB is "next in line" I don't want anyone thinking I'm a paranoid schitzo...I am saying that the inspection process seems to be blindfolded and not picking up on some of the new and improved ways that they are using to sore these TWH. The continued abuse will get these officials and the fed. govt to further expand on amendments to this HPA law. That is what I"M saying. I"m actually the one that stated emphatically that *** A horse that trots as a primary gait cannot do so properly if it is sore or has been sored!!! *** I said this a number of times while discussing the topic. I know for fact that ASB trainers stood before Congress and testified, also Morgan trainers/breeders did the same thing because they are seen as high stepping as well-I have a close friend that stood there and explained it was impossible to practice this and have the horse perform without the horse moving wrong and balance!!!

While the govt is informed about the ASB- regular outside horse people and non-horse people are not thoroughly informed and that is where the uphill climb begins...

The point I am trying to make to all here is that the outside horse world that isn't involved in either of these breeds lump the two breeds into the same catagory. They wouldn't know the difference between a slow-gait/ rack and a walking gait so that is why this is putting an impact on the ASB industry as well. I have been to shows where a person (not only one either) has made a comment that all those trainers make their horses sore to make them pick their feet up high like that. When you hear it once, it may be isolated or singular ignorance, when you hear it over and over again-then what is that? It is misinformation because these people see us the same way they view the TWH and the soring issue- that is what is said by people that don't know the difference and it is upseting that so many people watch our SB trot by and think that we are cruel. It trickles over I swear to God it does!!!!

[D_BaldStockings]

here is a link to a yahoo forum.
They have clearly substituted SB for TWH is their answer.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071204192657AAeWkZb

And note that there is no dissenting voice to straighten it out.

[D_BaldStockings]

And here's another:

http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Byrne_Teri_7068406.aspx
published in Sept 2008 from original in 2001?
http://www.animalfair.com/content.php?p=celeb_byrne

"Former WCW Nitro Girl, Teri Byrne, nicknamed "Fyre" for her crimson locks, "fiery" personality, and let's not forget about her last name, carries a torch for animals in need.Recognized for donating her spare time to speaking out against animal cruelty, Teri's focal points include the inhumane treatment of greyhounds and the mistreatment of Saddle bred horses."

My bolding. This could even have been an Editor's error, perhaps they didn't know there were different breeds.

The point is that rhettdgn is right, the casual non-horse person lumps us all together, Saddleseat plus gaited or not. And misinformation gets repeated ad infinitum, so just keep repeating the rebuttal ad infinitum, because you will always have a fresh audience.

[rhettdgn]

Thank you for backing me up with the facts here!!!I so appreciate it let me tell you. My legal Asst. skills are almost gone!!

I would love to see that the USDA officials and also whatever animal protection agencies out there that understand the training, shoeing and breeding of these horses to stand up and correct these very large errors loudly and precisely. How come no one comes forward and says that his article that so and so wrote as informational is incorrect and inaccurate?
Writing something like "Saddle bred horses" is very damaging to the breed. It is their responsiblity to know about the different breeds when you write an article. They are responsible for the words and information that they put out there for the public to read.
I believe that maybe the ASHA should kindly request a correction about the misquote. Explaining that this sort of blunder has an impact on breeds which do not practice this sort of methodology. I don't look at it as damage control-but it is a request for correction.

It drives me nuts that the gaited and high-stepping (I keep using this wordage as this is how it reads in the HPA) breeds are put in this category when it doesn't happen, but so so many think and assume that it does!!!

I again thank you for those materials-Its nice to be credited as being correct. Rare, but nice all the same.

[attafox]

Okey-dokey - so who is going to do something about it? Did you realize that on Yahoo answers that if you are a reliable member of the Yahoo community (aka you have a Yahoo identity, belong to a group, etc.) that you can report an answer as being in violation - aka WRONG? And, if two or more reliable members report it as illegal that it will be removed?

I just reported the first answer as being illegal - because technically it IS fraudulent. No ASB shows have been shut down. TWH shows have been, but not Saddlebred. The writer was incorrect in his/her statement and is therefore making a fraudulent claim ... anybody else willing to stand up and be counted?

[♥Gabrielle♥]

attafox, I reported it too

[D_BaldStockings]

Thanks, guys

I don't post on any other forum than this at this time, although I can obviously read such misinformation without being a member.

[rhettdgn]

Attafox- No- actually I didn't realize that as a member of Yahoo you could report these things- but in my defense-I'm not a member of YaHoo so how would I know that. I am not excusing myself through the ignorance that I didn't know, but truly I didn't. There are a number of articles that are published all the time that the information isn't up to the accuracy level it should and all we can do is ask for the correction. Who is going to do it? Well, I guess anyone that is informed should do it.

[SaddlebredMom]

Writing something like "Saddle bred horses" is very damaging to the breed. It is their responsiblity to know about the different breeds when you write an article. They are responsible for the words and information that they put out there for the public to read.

I see the phrase "saddle horse" used all the time to lump all of the gaited breeds together (ASB, TWH, Spotted Saddle Horse, etc.) which only confuses the matter and makes it more difficult for the ASB to set itself apart. I think rhettdgn makes a very valid point about public perception -- it's guilt by association because the gaited breeds are all lumped together. For instance, take a look at this list, and make a special note of the graphic used 2x in the website header . . . :tongue_smilie: Pleasure Saddle Horse Registry (http://www.pshr.com/breedkey.htm)

What's the best defense to this? Education about the ASB. Get the ASB out there in the public eye and introduce them to the horse. Demonstrate why they are distinct and separate, and not part of the soring issue. I get questions constantly about our show shoes from the unknowing -- both fellow horsemen and the non-horse public. Even if I don't get a question but happen to catch that "look" (I know you all know which one I mean! ;) ) I will say "hello" and politely introduce them to our horse and say they are an American Saddlebred show horse and start explaining what we do and why. Public outreach on a one-on-one basis is something every ASB person needs to practice every chance they get, and that will combat the misconceptions.

[scrtwh]

This topic is a broken record.

I've yet to see a show ASB with HEALTHY feet. It took me TWO years to get healthy, well-balanced feet with viable frog and sole tissue on my ex-SS show horse. TWO YEARS.

Not that that is an excuse for the padded horse or the crappy feet on some of those flatshod horses, thats ridiculous too, but ... really.

[rhettdgn]

Well, like I've been saying-generalizations are just bad news.. I've had Saddlebreds for years and although I've bought a couple of horses over the years that have had feet not in the best condition, it couldn't be a breed problem because after a couple of months of good management and good horseshoer they no longer had a problem..

I have a bunch of Saddlebreds right now and they all have great feet and they wear "show shoes". I don't get it. If you use proper stable management and proper common sense while you steward these horses- it's a no-brainer!

There is no magical creme or additive that makes this happen. I'LL REPEAT IT AGAIN- it's good care, good horseshoer, good food and good stable management. These are basic skills not major science!!!!

We are discussing the impressions that are rolled into one by the outside horse and non-horse people here- I am not sure why you are commenting on issues regarding the health of the hoof, but I disagree with you big time here nontheless!! As to the TWH- I'm sure that generalizing in regard to this breed here is just as improper and inaccurate. Your personal experience for one ASB, doesn't mean that all are unhealthy hooved, just the same for the TWH, or how about the Morgan they are "shod up" as well.

[attafox]

Well, success - the question has been deleted on yahoo - but rhettdgn, all you had to do was look at the bottom of that link when it was posted and it said you could report it. That's how I figured it out :blush:

And yes, scrtwh, I agree, it's been beat to death. :yawn:

What I don't agree with is that ASBs have crappy feet due to showing. Some do, some don't. My mare has the most incredible feet (as does her daughter) and all 4 of them are white. My gelding (with the black feet) has the shelliest feet in the world no matter how short we keep them.

[rhettdgn]

The original link to the question in reference to Yahoo was one of three inaccurate articles that D_Baldstockings had discovered, not I, and as I was following the information: that if 2 people reported materials as illegal than it would be removed. You were the first to report it and Gabrielle was the second so the issue was already resolved before I could go to same and also report it. I do appreciate the information as to how to do this and will do as you suggest in the future.

I apologize if you feel the issue has been discussed to death, but I'm sure it will continue to be discussed as it is a continuing problem that follows like the plague!!!

Now, lets have a constructive conversation and also a great Thanksgiving too!!!

[rhettdgn]

This the article that I referred to earlier:

Court Upholds Soring Decision
by: Edited Press Release
November 20 2008, Article # 13137
Print Email Republish Link RSS ShareThis
The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit recently upheld a U.S. Department of Agriculture ruling that Herbert and Jill Derickson of Tennessee violated the Horse Protection Act when they transported and entered a sored Tennessee Walking Horse, Just American Magic, in a 2002 horse show.


Soring is the deliberate infliction of pain on the legs and feet of a horse, in order to create severe pain and force an exaggerated, high-stepping gait.


"This decision sends a clear message to anyone who abuses a Tennessee Walking Horse that the U.S. Department of Agriculture can and will strictly enforce the Horse Protection Act," said Keith Dane, director of equine protection for The HSUS. "We commend the court for its decision and hope this case signals a renewed USDA resolve to protect Tennessee Walking Horses and other victims of soring."


According to court documents, Herbert Derickson presented Just American Magic for pre-show inspection at the 34th Annual National Walking Horse Trainer's Show. Two industry inspectors determined that Just American Magic was sore because he had bilateral scarring and thus did not comply with the Horse Protection Act. The horse was disqualified, and USDA initiated enforcement action.


In their appeal, the Dericksons claimed that there was insufficient evidence to show a violation of the Horse Protection Act, and that USDA lacked authority to pursue legal action once the Dericksons had been sanctioned by an industry self-regulatory organization.


The court rejected both claims, and upheld the USDA's decision in full. According to the decision, this was not Herbert Derickson's first soring offense. He had been issued an eight-month suspension and $600 fine for a bilateral soring violation involving Just American Magic the previous year.

[SteppinEasy]

This the article that I referred to earlier:

Court Upholds Soring Decision
by: Edited Press Release
November 20 2008, Article # 13137
Print Email Republish Link RSS ShareThis



The court rejected both claims, and upheld the USDA's decision in full. According to the decision, this was not Herbert Derickson's first soring offense. He had been issued an eight-month suspension and $600 fine for a bilateral soring violation involving Just American Magic the previous year.

Now there's the understatement of the year!:001_huh: One of the biggest problems with the TWH industry is that there are literally zero social/economic consequences for repeat offenders. Watch and see how many of the Derickson's horses and their customers' horses will now be owned/shown by their amateur daughters or their juvenile exhibitor son. Or listed as being trained by one of the barn's assistant trainers. There's no peer pressure or economic pressure to do it any differently.

Another huge problem is simply the fact that the referenced incident happened in 2002. The Dericksons have been carrying on business as usual ever since.

What does this have to do with ASBs? Honestly, we're fighting a losing battle as far as educating the general public about the differences between ASBs and TWHs. The Powers that Be left that barn door open far too many years ago.

But we have to realize that none of the bad press the TWH has received over the years has kept the breed from expanding like crazy. Why? Because the TWHBEA has been extremely open to promoting the breed as an all-around horse the whole family can enjoy in a multitude of situations. They've also been really open to creating new show divisions for those horses, as well as creating whole new shows to emphasize the backyard horse and establishing high-profile recognition programs for horses that excel in disciplines or activities outside the show ring.

In short, they've made EVERYONE from the top show ring competitors to the smallest backyard pleasure rider feel like they have a place in the breed and in the association. There's a lot the ASHA and the ASB community as a whole could learn from that example.

[tommygrl]

But we have to realize that none of the bad press the TWH has received over the years has kept the breed from expanding like crazy. Why? Because the TWHBEA has been extremely open to promoting the breed as an all-around horse the whole family can enjoy in a multitude of situations. They've also been really open to creating new show divisions for those horses, as well as creating whole new shows to emphasize the backyard horse and establishing high-profile recognition programs for horses that excel in disciplines or activities outside the show ring.

In short, they've made EVERYONE from the top show ring competitors to the smallest backyard pleasure rider feel like they have a place in the breed and in the association. There's a lot the ASHA and the ASB community as a whole could learn from that example.


AMEN !
I & so many others have been saying this for years; so, what are the ASB heirarchy going to do?
This thread started with soring, and now how the TWH has progressed even with soring. They are proactive & inclusive. Seems to me the ASB fancy keeps defending what we do (saddleseat, tails) instead of reaching out aggressively with those activities and classes that include the general public or backyard owner (are there any of those left?).
I hope we do learn from the TWH & other breeds' example, and act on it.

[walkinghorseowner]

In regards to the derickson case.... they were put on suspension in 2002/2003... they served their suspension issued by the breed... I believe it was 9 + months...(they did not get off scott free, they wre punished by our own inspection organization, they could not show).. after this was all completed(suspension was served and they were off probation etc, the government then decides to issue government charges against them.... several years later.....
The Derickson's contention was that this was double jeopardy....

[Fanfare]

A walking horse from 50 years or so ago. This was "one of the top Walking Mares in the country".
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/MokeyBird/Horses/Old/PIC-01401.jpg

Granted that was fifty years ago. The book where I got this picture also has a nice standing shot of Merry Go Boy. I know he was mentioned in this thread. Pretty horse. It would be interesting to see a moving shot of him.

[vlayne]

All the photos we see of ASBs from 50 years ago were retouched, otherwise we'd see the same huge changes in way of going and headset from then, compared to now. Ahhhh, progress. :nuke:

[Fanfare]

This one was from the same page as the twh.
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/MokeyBird/Horses/Old/PIC-01381.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/MokeyBird/Horses/Old/112_3897.jpg

They had decent photomanipulation capabilities back then? I'm not discounting you. I don't know.

[vlayne]

Yes they did. That is why you see so many photos that say "unretouched" on them from back in the 70s. Because it was so common for photos from that era to be retouched, so people were proud when they had an awesome pic and it was all real.

It's a lost art, all done with a scalpel, a paint brush and great, time consuming care.

All the old pics you see with the nice soft plain background were retouched. Usually they adjust the neck, sometimes the rider, definitely the motion, usually the tail... it's not too hard to tell.

The second ASB pic (in the show ring) looks unretouched, but it's hard to tell from a scan of a print. But it's very hard to retouch by hand something as difficult as a chain link fence and crowd - since they left the background, I'd say it's probably all real.

The gray horse definitely looks retouched. For sure the background and tail, possibly the front (raised) leg and shoulder. Too blurry to say.

[attafox]

The ASB Museum had a wonderful series that showed the photo retouching during the year that they had the Black Horsemen exhibit. Basically, they showed that the original photo, taken at the farm with the black trainer was retouched to show the white owner riding the horse in a show environment - which was then used for advertising.

So yes, they had quite the retouch capabilities.

[Fanfare]

Oh okay, thank you.

[saddlebreds_and_buses]

The ASB Museum had a wonderful series that showed the photo retouching during the year that they had the Black Horsemen exhibit. Basically, they showed that the original photo, taken at the farm with the black trainer was retouched to show the white owner riding the horse in a show environment - which was then used for advertising.

So yes, they had quite the retouch capabilities.

I saw the same exhibit! it was awesome.

[ASB Stars]

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=13827