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  #1  
Old 02-03-2009, 11:13 AM
crhoton crhoton is offline
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Large Heart.......x-factor

I am looking for information and/or articles regarding this phenomenon. Tell me all you know!!
Thank you
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Old 02-03-2009, 01:09 PM
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I found some information here,

http://mitchellclarkstables.com/_/MC...p?id=17&mnu=17
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:39 PM
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I have a ton of information about the X factor and I have had Marianna Haun review my horse. This is what she wrote:

My Genius’ Private Secretary

First, let me state that the only way to establish a mare as a double copy is to first measure her and ascertain that she herself expresses a large heart and then to measure a male offspring that looks nothing like her and find another large heart. Her male produce can only receive their X chromosome from their dam and will either express her dominant X or her recessive X chromosome. Because family resemblance follows the expressed X chromosome, you need the son that doesn’t look like his dam to find the recessive. Whenever a mare expresses the X she received from her dam and you know the heart size of her sire, then you can know what is on each of her X chromosomes.

This is always a gift as it can take several years to achieve sons with different Xs. A double copy for the large heart is not a common thing, in any breed. A mare can have a normal heart on one X and a large heart on the other X. This is the more common pattern. Some double copy mares, such as the tiny twin we used in our research, The Last Red, or “Mighty Mouse,” as she is known, had a large heart (heartscore of 130) on one X (her recessive) and a super heart (147-150) on her other X. It is very rare to find a mare with a “super” heart on both Xs.

I’m concerned about the pronouncements of double copy status that are being thrown around the Saddlebred industry. No one can look at a pedigree and firmly state that a mare is a double copy or a stallion has a large heart without measurements. And, in the case of the mare, the recessive is very tricky and can not be determined based upon production or even performance. There is a Saddlebred world champion that I can state has a large heart and that his daughters have all received a copy of this heart on the X chromosome they inherited from their sire. That stallion is Harlem Globetrotter. We measured him and found the Saddlebred equivalent of the super heart found in the Thoroughbred. We were able to measure two sets of full sisters and a grandson and chart the inheritance path of his “super” heart. In his daughters, some expressed his heart and some expressed their mother’s X chromosome. The grandson, out of one of his daughters, had Harlem Globetrotter’s super heart. We have found large and occasionally super hearts in the Saddlebreds we have measured. We have also found normal and small hearts in successful show horses. The stamina influence is helpful in some classes, such as the five-gaited and harness, but is not necessary in other classes. The most important thing for performance Saddlebreds is their conformation and way of traveling.

One of the most interesting things we have learned in the 13 years we have been following the X-linked inheritance for large hearts is the other things that travel on the X chromosome in addition to the heart. We have found that the body type, the front end, the way of traveling, the bone, the air flow, the top line, the nostril, neck, throat latch all follow the expressed X chromosome. Family resemblance follows the expressed X chromosome. Color does not. When a foal hits the ground, look to see who it looks like. If it is a filly, it can look like either the sire or the dam. If it is a colt, it will have the physical characteristics of one side or the other of its dam. The Y chromosome, which is what is passed from father to son, is much smaller than the X chromosome and has few genes on it. Bascially, it is a sex determinant. If the sire throws a Y

chromosome, the resulting foal will be a colt. Muscle mass seems to follow on the Y chromosome. An example of this is Northern Dancer and the way his sons seemed to express his “Quarter Horse” body type in terms of muscle.

In the case of your mare, she has some good possibilities for stamina influences in her pedigree. I like her broodmare sire, Starheart Victory, who is out of the BHF mare High Point Flame. Her dam, Flaming Dawn’s Genius is by champion King’s Genius, who tracks to the Thoroughbred mare, Pekina and Lexington, both of who carried the large heart mutation. Her granddam, Flaming Dawn, also goes to Pekina and Lute Boyd, another stamina influence.

Her sire, Desert’s Supreme Fortune, is out of Lisa Bartlett, whose sire Beau Fortune, is out of BHF Anacacho Princess by Edna May’s King, who also goes to Pekina. Anachacho Princess’s dam, Hazel Simmons is also a BHF with links to Pekina, Eclipse and others. On the bottom of Lisa Bartlett is Mary Bartlett by Noble Kalarama who has links to the large heart mutation. Your mare is inbred to Noble Kalarama with her second dam, Gina Genius by Jovial Genius, who is out of a daughter of Noble Kalarama, High Contente Florence, who is out of a daughter of King Vine, another sire with large heart links. But while there are many indications of the mutation in her pedigree, there is no way to know what she has without measuring her.

There is no way to predict what horses in the past had in terms of heart size. Horses were used for many different purposes and even today they can just be a favorite riding horse or a backyard pet. Different circumstances, money, time and even inclination to develop the talents of a particular horse, can impact their pattern of performance. When we look back historically and try to guess what might have been we look for indications of extraordinary stamina. Horses that were used in four-mile races or who could, like Lute Boyd, cover long distances with little ill effect. There is also the pattern in sires of having better performing daughters than sons like the great Wing Commander. This is a consistent characteristic of a large-hearted sire passing a superior X chromosome to his daughters.

I think one of the easiest ways to try to figure out which X your horse is carrying is to do physical comparisons with parents or grandparents. We have been able to document the heart sizes of long-dead horses based on their descendents with the help of physical resemblance. I’m looking forward to measuring my new mare, Some Chance. She looks very much like her broodmare sire, Cox’s Ridge. When we know what heart size she has, we will know what heart he was passing to his daughters. He is an extraordinary broodmare sire, so it shouldn’t be a small heart. But he is dead, and this is the only way to know what he was passing.

Your mare sounds very interesting and I look forward to seeing her and measuring her heart. Just remember, the heart makes a good genetic marker for what else is being inherited on the X line, which may be even more important in a show horse.

Also, remember that in reading my book, each breed has its own scale of large heartscores. There is approximately a 20 point difference between the Saddlebred heartscore and the Thoroughbred heartscore. In Quarter Horses, their heartscores are between 10-15 points less than they are in a

Thoroughbred. You can’t compare the heartscore found in a Thoroughbred racehorse and a Saddlebred, even though they may track to the same mutation historically. It has been many years since Saddlebred were crossed with Thoroughbreds and their physical conditioning during the formative first three years is different….Marianna Haun

Here's her website:
http://horsesonly.com/haun/default.htm
http://horsesonly.com/crossroads/xfactor/default.htm

Here's a link to her book:
http://www.bestwebbuys.com/Understan...?isrc=b-search

I have tried to have a clinic in my area some years back, to have her heart measured but there was just not enough interest. There have been several blogs started on the old trot, you can also look for some things there. I have the book if you have trouble getting it let me kow I will send you my copy. IT IS FASCINATING STUFF!

There are some article in older ASHA magazines about the large heart 3 different articles in the magazines and I have them all I can scan them and send them to you as well.
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Last edited by SADLUP : 02-03-2009 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 02-03-2009, 04:36 PM
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Reedannland has information on it as well: http://reedannland.com/xfactor.html

June/July '03 was the first ASHA article and then most of their magazines up until Cynthia Hecht left. She would probably be an excellent source of information as well.
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Old 02-03-2009, 05:13 PM
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SADLUP SADLUP is offline
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I am not sure if Cynthia is available any more or not. She did a report on my mare too and I have a copy of that as well and can share it. Both of these types of reports have a small fee attached as I recall it was only about $50.00. This was several years ago as I said, so it may or may not be available through ASHA and the cost may be different. The cost of measureing the heart was more like $125.00 and the cost of having Marianna Haun and the vet come and do the clinic. So that never happened I couldn't get enough interest. I will share all that I have just let me know what you want.
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Reserve Champion - Tri State
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Old 02-03-2009, 06:47 PM
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very interesting topic here. See, this is confusing to me because a large heart in humans is a problem, so it is interesting to learn about this in horses. Very good info on both of those websites. How do we know if horses in our horses' pedigrees carry the gene?
I know there have been some stallions and mares discussed that carry it, but is there a publicized list? I believe my colt's sire Trust Fund carries it, though my colt is male, so it would be dependent upon whether the mare was a carrier or not as to if my colt inherited it.

Is there a way to know other than measuring? My old gelding had the most incredible stamina I've ever seen- better than my arabs, I'm guessing he might have had a copy of the gene?
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Old 02-03-2009, 07:39 PM
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SADLUP SADLUP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samigator View Post
very interesting topic here. See, this is confusing to me because a large heart in humans is a problem, so it is interesting to learn about this in horses. Very good info on both of those websites. How do we know if horses in our horses' pedigrees carry the gene?
I know there have been some stallions and mares discussed that carry it, but is there a publicized list? I believe my colt's sire Trust Fund carries it, though my colt is male, so it would be dependent upon whether the mare was a carrier or not as to if my colt inherited it.

Is there a way to know other than measuring? My old gelding had the most incredible stamina I've ever seen- better than my arabs, I'm guessing he might have had a copy of the gene?
Marianna Haun will analyze your horses pedigree and she will tell you as she did with me what your chances are based on the horses that she knows carries the large heart. Good stamina is a very good indication and is what triggered me to look into it further for my horse, but I have a Mare.

The only way you can tell for sure, is if the heart is measured, so even for me I do not know for sure. It is not a problem for horses to have a large heart it helps them.

A male horse is an XY, and a female is an XX, So the Dam can only pass an X and the Sire can pass and X or a Y. If the sire passes the Y then the foal is a colt, if the sire passes the X then the foal is a filly. Hense the name X factor, because only the X can pass the gene that produces the large heart. Therefore a sire cannot pass the large heart gene to a colt only to a filly. Only mares can be double copies getting the X gene from both sides.

As far as a list again I believe Marianna Haun has one, but I don't know if it is publicized. She has been doing a study for years and only those that are willing to get their heart measure publicize it and the only Saddlebred that I know that has it is the one she mentioned in my analysis from her.

I hope I have answered all your questions, every couple of years this comes up.
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Champion - ASHAO, OASPHA, ICHA & ISHA
Reserve Champion - Tri State
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Old 02-04-2009, 10:48 AM
crhoton crhoton is offline
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Why is a list of known horses not published? It is a good thing, unlike the SCID fiasco in arabians several years ago. Then people who want to breed for the trait, just like color, or ears, or neck, or size, will have one more variable to help them.
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Old 02-04-2009, 11:29 AM
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SADLUP SADLUP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crhoton View Post
Why is a list of known horses not published? It is a good thing, unlike the SCID fiasco in arabians several years ago. Then people who want to breed for the trait, just like color, or ears, or neck, or size, will have one more variable to help them.
I know that Harlem Globetrotter has had his heart measured. I would contact Marianna Haun and ask her for a list of known ASB's with the large Heart trait.

I have sent you my mare pedegree. I only suspect she has the large heart it has not been confirmed. I also have photos of some members family. If you would like me to send them. I was looking to see who she resembled the most.
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HORSE WORLD'S PEOPLES CHOICE
Champion in Hunt & Western
ASB Hunter CP
ASHA Ohio State Champion
Saddle Horse Report Top 10 Reserve Grand Champion
Champion - ASHAO, OASPHA, ICHA & ISHA
Reserve Champion - Tri State
ASB Western CP
Champion - ASHAO, ICHA, & ISHA
Reserve Champion - OASPHA & Tri State
Pinto Western Reserve Champion - ICHA & ISHA
Proud Sponsor of the My Genius' Private Secretary Saddlebred Versatility Award!
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Old 02-04-2009, 12:27 PM
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ASB Stars ASB Stars is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crhoton View Post
Why is a list of known horses not published? It is a good thing, unlike the SCID fiasco in arabians several years ago. Then people who want to breed for the trait, just like color, or ears, or neck, or size, will have one more variable to help them.
There are some folks who have had the work done, and use it for their ads- think of Reedannland's advertisements.

I agree, it would be nice to see a list, but I sure wouldn't consider it to be the be-all. or end-all, simply because there are most certainly other horses- as yet untested- who could be large heart critters, as well.
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